Is there any hope for an indebted US?

[Martin Ekdahl]

The public debt of the US yesterday crossed the $ 12 trillion line.

In September 2008, the debt was $ 10 trillion.Today it's $ 12 046 889 331 166. That's dangerously close to the statuatory $ 12,1 trillion limit for how big the debt are allowed to be. The estimated population of the United States is 307,317,100 so each citizen's share of this debt is $39,200.19. The debt continues to increase an average of $ 3,88 billion per day.

$ 12 trillion is twice as much as the Marshall plan, the Louisiana Purchase, the Moon landing, the savings-and-loan crisis (in the early 90s), the Korea war, Roosevelt's New Deal, the Iraq war, the Vietnam war and NASA. All together and inflation adjusted. There is nothing indicating that the raging US debt will slow down. On the contrary, it seems to spin even faster and faster.

Today, the US is heavily dependent on China for it's survival, and China's control grows stronger for every dollar adding to the public debt. The EU is on it's way out of the crisis, China almost wasn't harmed at all. But what about the US?

My question simply is: Is there any hope that the US will turn this destructive trend? And if, how will it be done?
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"The meaning with life must be to do something meaningful with your life".

[Nick_A]

We could reverse the trend but it is not politically correct to do so.

Reversal would begin with lowering taxes and abolishing many regulations allowing small business to flourish while creating jobs creating items worth something that could be exported as well as replacing what we import.

The second is energy independence. We have access to a tremendous amound oil and natural gas that we could develop rather than buy it from other countries.

We can begin to include more nuclear power by building more reactors. There are other suggestions but the bottom line is that these suggestions are politically incorrect so we will continue to spend until the nation collapses from within.
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Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

[JPhillips]

Nick

Sounds as if you are saying that politicians are putting votes and money from special interest groups ahead of what is best for the country.

Did we already have the discussion regarding term limits?

[Juice]

If we cannot, as yet, see that we are steadfastly becoming a tyranny whereby the will of the people is being subverted by a corrupt judiciary and central government then we are lost, and nothing less than open rebellion will reverse that tragic course. If we see and take responsibility to recognize the designs of a selfish few whose aims and ideology are meant to destroy the promise of this great land then stock up, take to the streets, shut this country down, refuse to participate in any manner until this corrupt madman recognizes that we the people are in charge.

It's a choice between bullets, or money.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

[JPhillips]

Juice

Be careful of your choice of words, my friend. Next thing you know the FBI will have an open case on you.

Of course, they had a file on the late, great Dr. Martin Luthor King, so maybe that should be considered an honorable thing.

[Juice]

I speak Constitution, just like Martin.

Besides I'll do just the opposite and ask for a trial in Gitmo.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

[ape]

Hi ME!


The debt amassed by the US banks in derivatives alone is 600 trillion dollars! Yes, trillion with a T! That over half a QUADRILLION of dollars!


The US will do what the UK did in the 1930's and default on its debt. The US has already gone Weimar or Zimbabwe 2! The banksters are in charge.


Just googled: $600 TRILLION DOLLARS: here are just 2 results:


Coming Soon: The $600 Trillion Derivatives Emergency Meeting ... Antal Fekete wrote recently: "you cannot hedge debt risk by owning more debt. ..... Which means although it's hundreds of trillion of dollars, in the end, it's just money flying around different .. seekingalpha.com/article/99674-comi... The Last Congressional Campaign Stump Speech Note - Opening Inner ... Aug 19, 2009 ..


A derivative is simply a bet on the future value of a bond, .. To pay off 600 trillion dollars all we would have to do is for .... we would have no 12 trillion dollar debt and no .. openingmind.blogspot.com/2009/08/la...

[JPhillips]

Juice

I agree we have all become too apathetic in this country. We should march on Washington in the millions and all exclaim, "We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore".

BTW, the fact that President Kennedy, his brother Bobby, and Dr. King were all speaking within their constitutional rights and were only striving to make this world a better place for all of us, did not keep them from being assassinated. That was truly one of the saddest and darkest periods in the history of this nation.

[Juice]

I sincerely do not believe that Americans are going to take much more of this. I mean when Murtha stands on the floor of congress and completely discounts a nay vote, not once but twice, things are out of control. Unfortunately the only way to combat that level insanity is with an unequal level of force.

I have been researching avenues of submitting "no confidence" language in petitions in opposition to the entire executive and legislature. Let's just see what happens with this Senate Lacka Care legislation before we become a mob.

I'm down for a decent revolution.

Vote Palin!!
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

[JSBulmer]

Non - American here, so tell me to buzz off and mind my own business if you like.

The situation you describe is not soley within the US, but perhaps you all are merely late to the debt party.

Governments around the world have rung up masses debts in the attempt to make a better life for its citizens. That is the lie, for the better life is not for all of the citizens, but for a general (or select) grouping of certain citizens.

I am mid-40's and if I live to my 80's or 90's I fully expect a rebellion / revolution to occur. But it will be an attact on the system, not an attack on a particular government.

Our respective systems of government are based on archaic and historic principles that I do not believe are suitable for the era which we now live in. We have advanced much in our respective 200 years, but our systems have not although through the guise of technology they appear to have advanced.

As a Canadian I do chuckle when I hear the phrase 'we the people ...' being used south of the border. I chuckle not in a demeaning way, but in a view that 'you the people ...' have no say, nor do you have any sway or power. Those 'rights' were lost a long time ago and to reclaim them will be to steal power from the power-brokers of today, which will not be a pretty reclamation project.

This reminds me of some of the discussion on the Enlightenment thread. 200-ish years ago has been deemed the Age of Englightenment, which also corresponds with various new systems of government as well as new governments (read countries) themselves.

jb
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"The lies of today will become the truths of tomorrow"

"If a thought never escapes the mind of the thinker, did it ever exist?"

[JPhillips]

JSBulmer

Actually I truly appreciate the objective views of "outsiders". We Americans are too close to the problem. The observations of an outsider looking in are welcome, as long as the outsider is not merely attacking our way of life, but rather is making an attempt to discuss an observation in earnest, can help us getting a bearing on where we are. It can help us to affirm or reconsider our position.

You are Canadian, so you bring to mind the song American Woman, written and sung by Burt Cummings of the Guess Who. This was a time of turbulence and revolution; a time of internal conflicts not seen in this country for decades, if not since the Civil War. I was young and rebellious. I loved the song and was never insulted because I felt the song was a protest against the American government and military
mindset of the period rather than a commentary on the American people at large. It turns out the song was indeed inspired by the American draft dodgers who crossed over into Canada. Some Americans called them cowards who were afraid to fight and defend the democracy of this country. Others applauded them for opposing a war that many believed needed to be brought to an end.

Nixon hated the song. I am certain he also hated the song, Four Dead in Ohio which Neil Young wrote and performed with Crosby, Stills and Nash in reaction to the "government sanctioned murders" of children that occurred at Kent State. Neil Young was Canadian also.

God bless Canadians. Ya gotta love 'em.

[Scott]

As argued in the thread The Philosophy of Government Spending, this problem is not unique to the current United States government. It is an example of the inherent problem of government spending. Special interest groups make money by manipulating the government into spending more and more of the taxpayers money in ways that are not beneficial for the taxpayers.

Lowering taxes is not a way to fix the problem. It increases the debt and pushes the debt onto future generations. Changing tax policy only changes the proportions of how much certain taxpayers pay in comparison to others. For instance, if taxes are lowered on the rich but government spending continues at the same rate, then that is an increase on the proportion the non-rich have to pay. The only way to decrease the total amount the taxpayers as whole have to pay is to decrease government spending, but the opposite tends to happen because that is in the interests of the special interests who possess bipartisan control over the government. In the US, for example, every president in recent history including Reagen increased government spending. If I remember correctly, Bill Clinton increased spending more than any other president had increased it before him. Then, Bush 2 increased it even more than Clinton. Like the long list of predecessors before him, I bet Obama will do the same.
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Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

[JSBulmer]

Scott, has not Obama done that already? I don't keep current on everything but thought I had seen a posting on a website about that somewhere.

The biggest challenge is who is going to tell our governments to live within their means? For most of us we have a loan or mortgage or whatever and another entity requires us to pay off our debts. Government is at the top of the pyramid and their is no overarching entity to call in their loans.

'We the people' do not have that ability, for our attempts to instill a different government results in the same problem but with different faces and names. That is why I suggest the system needs to be scrapped and not merely a government.

I suppose that is how some of the great wars started, but I don't know if we want to go down that path.
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"The lies of today will become the truths of tomorrow"

"If a thought never escapes the mind of the thinker, did it ever exist?"

[JPhillips]

JSBulmer and Scott

God forbid this ever comes down to a war. The American Civil War was fought over a difference in economic policies and a view by the South that the North was exploiting the South in this regard. Lincoln was not nearly as concerned with the slavery issue as he was with the desire to keep the southern states from seceding. This was a war which could have an should have been avoided. The resolvent of the slavery issue, which really just a had part in the larger economic picture, would have come about without the loss of millions of American lives. If cooler heads would have prevailed, a compromise might have been reached and the needless bloodshed avoided.

Another American Civil War would only weaken this country further. It would give any outside forces, such as terrorists, the ability to mount a swift and deadly attack.

Our best defense is our own Democratic principles. We can make a difference through the election process and through the use of non-violent and peaceful demonstrations. Some violence may be unavoidable, because our government has shown a history in using violence against those who were merely asserting their constitutional rights by rallying demonstrators and marches in defiance of the status quo. The government has always gotten away with this, I believe, because the country has always been so divided. The so called movements involving Civil Rights, Woman's Rights, Gay Rights, and the opposition to the Viet Nam war were all met by stiff opposition from not only the government, but from within the ranks of the people.

The government tends to divide and control us ideology, philosophically, and politically. In the words of the famous Pogo, "We have met the enemy...and he is us".

How can we hope to overcome a corrupt government if we cannot even agree among ourselves which part of it is corrupt? Democrats say Republicans are to blame. The Republicans say the Democrats are to blame. Some people blamed Bush for everything that is wrong with this country. Now people want to blame Obama. Wake up everybody. We are all right. The blame should not be placed on the shoulders of one Party or the other. We must first acknowledge it is people, regardless of party affiliation, who are shouting from the rooftops of the virtues of democracy while by their actions, are slowing suffocating it to death.

Shouldn't we all have a say as to how our tax dollars are spent? Wouldn't it be grand if every single one of us refused to pay our taxes until the government stops to listen to the voice of reason? They could not put us all in prison. There would be no money to run them.

In the event another Civil War erupts due to the current political climate, I am headed for Canada.

[JSBulmer]

JP, good on you to recognize that it is society (or as you referred to it, the people) who are responsible for where the world is. The phrase 'paradigm shift' has been floating within my head for years, and I fully believe that only a paradigm shift will produce any material results.

And are we not already in the midst of a war? Not the easily recognized military conflict, but the type that goes on daily in the backrooms, boardrooms and street corners around the world. Casualties and loss of life are incurred (and not prevented) by the decisions made in these venues. And for me, it seems that the only real goal trying to be achieved is that of being better than the competitor or neighbor.

This is not solely an American problem. Every grouping of people around the world struggles with the same issues. We, as humans, seem to be very upset with the ruling class if we are not the ruling class.

jb

PS Recommendation for a place to run away from it all - Canada's Arctic. It is the only place I lived that I felt close to being free.
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"The lies of today will become the truths of tomorrow"

"If a thought never escapes the mind of the thinker, did it ever exist?"