Evolutionary reason for consciousness?

[Zelebg]

Some say it's pain and joy, or more precisely the ability to feel or be conscious of fear and desire, for the purpose to produce creative-reaction organism as opposed to just reflex-reactive. In other words, when organism encounters danger, then the ability to feel fear will give it options to deal with it creatively and in advance, while with reflex-reaction it can only run away, possibly too late. The same goes for the desire and seeking pleasure. To sum it up, to experience feelings subjectively makes it possible to seek pleasure and avoid danger more efficiently through the new functionality of newly acquired sentience - ability to plan in advance.

First, any other theory why consciousness? Second, this all makes sense, except I do not see why that or whatever functionality necessarily requires to be accompanied by the subjective experience or qualia. Why the need to actually suffer the pain, why it needs to hurt instead of just having an information about 'pain signal'? Why need to feel unpleasant fear instead of simply get 'fear signal' and 'compute' how to avoid the 'pain signal' without actually feeling or being conscious of anything?

[Repoman05]

First you have to prove consciousness. It can't be proven. It doesn't exist. It's likely a pseudoscientific term for incaporeal model used for navigation.

[chewybrian]

Reason does not quite seem to be the right word. I guess you mean why would evolution 'favor' conscious life forms over purely reactive life forms. I'm assuming for the sake of the discussion that the arrival of consciousness is some sort of accident, in line with the theory of evolution.

I don't see feelings as especially useful in winning the battle for survival. I would say adaptability is the edge. A conscious being can adapt to fit his environment. I can learn to use fire, build shelter, make clothes, store food for the winter, etc. The reactive life form must wait for natural selection to adapt him to a changed environment, and may not survive long enough to become adapted.

Why the 'need' to actually suffer pain? I will assume you mean what is the evolutionary advantage to survival of suffering pain. The advantage in terms of survival seems clear. You will be motivated to act on the signal to stop the pain, instead of simply being put on alert that there is an issue you should think about addressing. We don't take much action on something like global warming, even if it is on our list of problems that need our attention. We know it could be a life or death issue, but we are not suffering right now, so we neglect the issue. But, if there was a famine, we would be taking action! If you are on fire, you are motivated to jump in the river. If you have any other problem which does not cause physical pain, you may be tempted to put it on the back burner. If you put being on fire on the back burner, though, you may be out of the gene pool.

[Felix]

chewybrian: I don't see feelings as especially useful in winning the battle for survival. I would say adaptability is the edge. A conscious being can adapt to fit his environment. I can learn to use fire, build shelter, make clothes, store food for the winter, etc.

That doesn't add up. Feelings are an advance warning system that tell you that something is likely to either help or harm you. Fear and apprehension of what could happen to you if you don't protect yourself from the elements is what encouraged the activities you mentioned. Feelings preceded reason on the evolutionary ladder and they are usually more trustworthy. You acknowledged this when you said that we are rationalizing away our fear of the impact of climate change, which is certainly not a reasonable thing to do.

[Sculptor1]

First, any other theory why consciousness? Second, this all makes sense, except I do not see why that or whatever functionality necessarily requires to be accompanied by the subjective experience or qualia. Why the need to actually suffer the pain,...

Why not?
Pain causes caution.
Suffering causes avoidance.
It's not like there is a big sky daddy to kiss it better. Evolution does not care; cannot care; its an effect of change, not a cause of it. It does not know it's being a bastard.

[Felix]

Zelebg: Why need to feel unpleasant fear instead of simply get 'fear signal' and 'compute' how to avoid the 'pain signal' without actually feeling or being conscious of anything?

I don't follow... fear is the warning signal, pain is usually the result of ignoring that signal. And one can physically or even mentally anesthetize pain.

[Alias]

Earlier than that:
the protozoa that could tell the difference between warm and cold got to the warm end of the pool sooner, in greater numbers, and therefore multiplied faster, than the protozoa that just drifted around at random.

[Zelebg]

First you have to prove consciousness. It can't be proven. It doesn't exist. It's likely a pseudoscientific term for incaporeal model used for navigation.

It all depend on the definition, so if you can not define it, than why jump into conclusions?

[Zelebg]

Why the 'need' to actually suffer pain?

The assumption is that the same behaviour could be achieved without qualia, and yet we have it. So then I ask you to think of one thing that we get with qualia which would provide basis for some functionality that can not be computed without it.

Intuition, ideas, original concepts, for example. Can a computer do that, and to what degree? Or dreams, do they maybe provide some functionality that can not be computed without them? Something along those lines.

[Zelebg]

Why not?
Pain causes caution.
Suffering causes avoidance.
It's not like there is a big sky daddy to kiss it better. Evolution does not care; cannot care; its an effect of change, not a cause of it. It does not know it's being a bastard.

Of course qualia needs not to be necessary. But there are indications it uses much calories, and if true, there should be a reason for it. But I also purposefully want to assume it is necessary, so we can all focus into thinking about what could possibly be the reason for its necessity, something a mere computation can not do.

[Zelebg]

I don't follow... fear is the warning signal, pain is usually the result of ignoring that signal. And one can physically or even mentally anesthetize pain.

The point is all that can be done without qualia, supposedly it can be simulated with a PC. I am asking is there some functionality why qualia would be necessary, something a mere computation can not do.

[Zelebg]

Earlier than that:
the protozoa that could tell the difference between warm and cold got to the warm end of the pool sooner, in greater numbers, and therefore multiplied faster, than the protozoa that just drifted around at random.

I'm talking about 'subjective experience' and 'planning in advance', that is imagination, ideas, creativity, memory, concept of self and others, concept of time...

[Repoman05]

First you have to prove consciousness. It can't be proven. It doesn't exist. It's likely a pseudoscientific term for incaporeal model used for navigation.

It all depend on the definition, so if you can not define it, than why jump into conclusions?

I don't think I said it couldn't be defined just before defining it. If that's what you read I don't know why you read that. But why not jump to a conclusion. There's no consequences I might suffer, no footing I might miss. The worst that might happen is that I might choose to be corrected if I chose the offered correction worthy. Just because something can't be proven doesn't mean it can't be defined. I can make up a new word and define it any time I like. Neither the word I made nor the definition I stated would prove existence.

[Alias]

I'm talking about 'subjective experience' and 'planning in advance',

Those are two very different capabilities, quite far apart on the evolutionary tree.

that is imagination, ideas, creativity, memory, concept of self and others, concept of time...

A whole shopping list of capabilities that manifest, individually and various combinations, in various forms and styles, in many different organisms, at various levels of complexity.
If those are all prerequisite to your definition of "consciousness", the topic is too broad and the question too vague for meaningful discussion.

[Zelebg]

Those are two very different capabilities, quite far apart on the evolutionary tree.

I only say consciousness is necessary for planning in advance. If you know more, please share. Links will do.

A whole shopping list of capabilities that manifest, individually and various combinations, in various forms and styles, in many different organisms, at various levels of complexity.
If those are all prerequisite to your definition of "consciousness", the topic is too broad and the question too vague for meaningful discussion.

Not prerequisites for consciousness, but what is involved in the process of 'creative planning in advance', and consciousness is a prerequisite for that process. I’ve already rephrased the main question I'm intetested several times, see few posts above.