Equality

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Nick_A
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Equality

Post by Nick_A »

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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LuckyR
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Re: Equality

Post by LuckyR »

Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
"As usual... it depends."
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:30 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
Is equality in the value of slavery to government really an improvement at the expense of individual freedom?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:30 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
Inequality is at an all time high.
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LuckyR
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Re: Equality

Post by LuckyR »

Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:39 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:30 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
Is equality in the value of slavery to government really an improvement at the expense of individual freedom?
Euphemistic "slavery" compared to real live slavery? Yeah, it pretty much is, or are you forgetting the history of the US?
"As usual... it depends."
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:49 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:39 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:30 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm

It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
Is equality in the value of slavery to government really an improvement at the expense of individual freedom?
Euphemistic "slavery" compared to real live slavery? Yeah, it pretty much is, or are you forgetting the history of the US?
From the preamble to the Declaration of Independence.
A struggle means that there are those against these American ideals. Which do you oppose if any: the individual goals of life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: Equality

Post by popeye1945 »

Most of the conflicts of history are due to slavery, whether homegrown or called colonialism, the United States inherited the British colonial crown, and American reputation is due mainly to the desire to continue colonialism as the only superpower on the planet. With a constant war economy, America must have an enemy or enemies to justify itself. Globally there is no equality in the face of an all-powerful war machine called the United States, they are in process of now defining China as an evil empire, and it won't be long before she strikes at China. The world knows America is no intellectual giant, which makes it even scarier, absolute power in the hands of the come to Jesus mentality, I was talking to god the other day, and what did he say, "Good morning Vietnam!!" To quote the older Bush, "The world is just going to have to get use to the idea, what we say goes." They made Trump president, FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!! If there is any protest that this isn't relative to the individual and/or collective freedom your missing the point.
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm [“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville]
Not one statement in that quote is true. Starting with the distinction of democracy from socialism. The problem capitalists and autocrats of every stripe have with democracy is that, wherever it begins, it tends inevitably toward socialism. However they are propagandized and seduced, the majority of citizens tend to vote for what benefits the majority of citizens. Therefore, in order to keep benefitting the minority that considers itself elite, democracy must always be compromised, subverted and corrupted.
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty
...which existed in speeches, but was never written into the constitution and never seen anywhere in real life....
and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing.
Is it possible for everyone in a society to be enslaved by and enslave everyone else in that society? That's what the above self-consuming sentence appears to be saying.
Why?
Maybe they got fed up with being shot by cops more intent on serving and protecting Property than mere citizens.
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:13 pm Inequality is at an all time high.
Economic disparity is at an all-time high - within US history; obviously quite egalitarian compared to ancient Constantinople or feudal Europe, not great compared to the Aztec empire....
Political equality - of legal rights and freedoms, of access and opportunity - is better than it has ever been in US history... which still isn't anything like they've been bragging about.
So, the struggle for democracy continues.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 15th, 2021, 11:50 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:13 pm Inequality is at an all time high.
Economic disparity is at an all-time high - within US history; obviously quite egalitarian compared to ancient Constantinople or feudal Europe, not great compared to the Aztec empire....
Political equality - of legal rights and freedoms, of access and opportunity - is better than it has ever been in US history... which still isn't anything like they've been bragging about.
So, the struggle for democracy continues.
Not if you are really paying attention.
There are more actual real slaves in existence now than in any century in history and because of the world economic system we are all beneficiaries of that system.
The economic remoteness between the rich and poor is bigger than ever. This means the benefits of technological advancement could be shared but they are not.
The mechanisms by which people with money are able to earn more money by doing NO WORK, are more and varied, but are the reserve of the few who are also able to avoid taxation and have been continually benefiting from tax breaks, loop holes and tax cuts for generations.
Democracy as it stands is enabling and encouraging this process.

Where ordinary people ought to be better off than they were 40 years ago, the reverse is true.
Add to that the collapse of legal rights, freedoms and opportunities. Legal aid has been cut throughout the west on only available to criminal cases. Basic legal protection on all civil cases is the preserve of the rich only.
The increase on inequality has also meant the reduction of opportinities as the economy is squeezed at that bottom, fewer opportunites for ordinary people exist.
College fees ,and maintenence is more expensive, and is again becoming beyond the grasp of the majority as it was in the 1950s.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Equality

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm It seems America [...] is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?

Why? Greed and consumption based on free-market capitalism and continuous-growth economics, where profit is so important that trivial matters like consideration for others, or the collapsing ecosystem, are ignored. Don't worry. This situation cannot last much longer. Temperatures are rising, and resources are dwindling.... It's a hell of a way to stop slavery and other inequality, but it will work, we can be sure of that.
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:50 am [Economic disparity is at an all-time high...So, the struggle for democracy continues.]
Not if you are really paying attention.
There are more actual real slaves in existence now than in any century in history and because of the world economic system we are all beneficiaries of that system.
There are more of every kind of humans in existence today: the population has exploded. What are the percentages of each income bracket in each current society, compared to societies of the past?
The economic remoteness between the rich and poor is bigger than ever.
Show me the comparative lifestyles and classes of modern France and 12th century France.
This means the benefits of technological advancement could be shared but they are not.
That's true; has always been true.
The mechanisms by which people with money are able to earn more money by doing NO WORK, are more and varied, but are the reserve of the few who are also able to avoid taxation and have been continually benefiting from tax breaks, loop holes and tax cuts for generations.
That, too, has been true since the dawn of civilization: see biblical quote above.
Democracy as it stands is enabling and encouraging this process.
I already said that democracy is compromised - with malice and purpose - exactly because a truly functional democracy would disable this process.
Where ordinary people ought to be better off than they were 40 years ago, the reverse is true.
Agreed: they have clawed back the advances of the post-WWII working class renaissance. But then, a 40-year snip is no large segment of history. Take a longer view for more perspective: about once every 200 years, we have to chop some heads off the hydra to teach it manners.
Add to that the collapse of legal rights, freedoms and opportunities. Legal aid has been cut throughout the west on only available to criminal cases. Basic legal protection on all civil cases is the preserve of the rich only.
The increase on inequality has also meant the reduction of opportinities as the economy is squeezed at that bottom, fewer opportunites for ordinary people exist.
College fees ,and maintenence is more expensive, and is again becoming beyond the grasp of the majority as it was in the 1950s.
All of that is economic disparity. It hasn't affected the idea - the philosophical and political ideal - of equality. Which means that individual citizens have more self-esteem, more autonomy and agency than in past civilizations. They may be seduced, misled, propagandized and deluded, but the peons and varlets, plebes and bondsmen, various indigenous populations and most of the females no longer "know their place". Which makes them dangerous. Which is why the police need ever more military preparedness to control the masses.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 9:19 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:50 am [Economic disparity is at an all-time high...So, the struggle for democracy continues.]
Not if you are really paying attention.
There are more actual real slaves in existence now than in any century in history and because of the world economic system we are all beneficiaries of that system.
There are more of every kind of humans in existence today: the population has exploded. What are the percentages of each income bracket in each current society, compared to societies of the past?
That is a totally hollow argument!!
There are more people its obvious we want more slaves!!
The economic remoteness between the rich and poor is bigger than ever.
Show me the comparative lifestyles and classes of modern France and 12th century France.
Why be so particular?
There are people living in France who have nothing, and there are people in France that have more than they had in 12thC.
This means the benefits of technological advancement could be shared but they are not.
That's true; has always been true.
Yet another hollow argument.
You're full of em.
The mechanisms by which people with money are able to earn more money by doing NO WORK, are more and varied, but are the reserve of the few who are also able to avoid taxation and have been continually benefiting from tax breaks, loop holes and tax cuts for generations.
That, too, has been true since the dawn of civilization: see biblical quote above.
You simply cannot read. Try again.
In the dawn of civilisation there was no such thing as money and no wat to store wealth except with grain. There was no way to make money from the fact of just having money.
Democracy as it stands is enabling and encouraging this process.
I already said that democracy is compromised - with malice and purpose - exactly because a truly functional democracy would disable this process.
Where ordinary people ought to be better off than they were 40 years ago, the reverse is true.
Agreed: they have clawed back the advances of the post-WWII working class renaissance. But then, a 40-year snip is no large segment of history. Take a longer view for more perspective: about once every 200 years, we have to chop some heads off the hydra to teach it manners.
Add to that the collapse of legal rights, freedoms and opportunities. Legal aid has been cut throughout the west on only available to criminal cases. Basic legal protection on all civil cases is the preserve of the rich only.
The increase on inequality has also meant the reduction of opportinities as the economy is squeezed at that bottom, fewer opportunites for ordinary people exist.
College fees ,and maintenence is more expensive, and is again becoming beyond the grasp of the majority as it was in the 1950s.
All of that is economic disparity. It hasn't affected the idea - the philosophical and political ideal - of equality. Which means that individual citizens have more self-esteem, more autonomy and agency than in past civilizations. They may be seduced, misled, propagandized and deluded, but the peons and varlets, plebes and bondsmen, various indigenous populations and most of the females no longer "know their place". Which makes them dangerous. Which is why the police need ever more military preparedness to control the masses.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 16th, 2021, 9:13 am
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm It seems America [...] is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?

Why? Greed and consumption based on free-market capitalism and continuous-growth economics, where profit is so important that trivial matters like consideration for others, or the collapsing ecosystem, are ignored. Don't worry. This situation cannot last much longer. Temperatures are rising, and resources are dwindling.... It's a hell of a way to stop slavery and other inequality, but it will work, we can be sure of that.
OK, so greed and self interests assure that tyranny and the loss of liberty is the only way to restore order. That is typical in the world. However Simone Weil offers another option. Is it possible? Not now. The rejection of the help of Grace is too powerful in the world. She learned the futility of Man's efforts during her years as a celebrated Marxist

Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.

Liberty is impossible without the help of Grace.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Equality

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Grace? As in God, and "God's grace"? Or do you refer to something else?
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