Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

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Steve3007 wrote: ↑May 5th, 2021, 3:12 pm
Scott wrote:I don't know you mean by "extra-mental". Is it possible to define "extra" and "mental" separately in this context, and then explain what they mean together?
Outside the mind. "Extra" as in words like "extra-terrestrial", "extracurricular" and "extraordinary". "Mental" as in "of the mind".
What is the mind as you use the term?

Andy Clark and David Chalmers might argue that one's own smartphone is part of one's mind, that is according to their 1998 paper, The Extended Mind, as well as more recent interviews they have given on the same subject, including in episode 1811 of Closer to Truth, a show hosted by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn, who has a doctorate in neuroscience and is an author and editor of over 25 books.

Steve3007 wrote: ↑May 5th, 2021, 3:12 pm Objective propositions are (in my usage) propositions about more than just my mental state.
Isn't any statement about ice cream a statement about something more than just your mental state?

Among other things, to me, objectivity would typically entailing being entirely non-subjective, with special emphasis on the word entirely.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:I suppose it's a bit like the trade-off in software design between short, readable code and code that executes as quickly as possible.
I always tried to achieve both, thereby making a trade-off unnecessary. I succeeded quite often, I think. πŸ˜‰
Interesting. A topic specifically about various aspects of software design, and design patterns in general, would be interesting. I wonder if it would be considered too niche for a philosophy forum.

I guess the extent to which the trade-off between short readable code and efficient execution is necessary depends to some extent on design features of the language and the development environment. In the case of placing a short but frequently called function inline to avoid the function call/return overhead, the language-feature of being able to tell the compiler to inline that function when it's compiled without having to do so in source code would be a simple example.

But during my career (and previously in amateur programming) I've come across cases where awkward and ugly things have to be done in the name of efficiency. One of the earliest I can remember was on the ZX Spectrum, writing code in Z80 assembly language, in which pushing and popping 16 bit values onto/off the machine stack took (as I recall) 11 and 10 machine cycles respectively, which was slightly faster than other methods of moving data to and from memory (about 16 cycles I think). And on the Spectrum, running at 3.5MHz, every efficiency saving counted. So an efficient way to write code for writing to the whole of screen memory (or any other large block of memory) at once was to temporarily point the machine stack pointer at screen memory, remembering to move it back afterwards and disable interrupts in between. So that was a consequence of a quirk of the Z80 chip's architecture.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote:I suppose it's a bit like the trade-off in software design between short, readable code and code that executes as quickly as possible.
Pattern-chaser wrote:I always tried to achieve both, thereby making a trade-off unnecessary. I succeeded quite often, I think. πŸ˜‰
Steve3007 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 6:29 am Interesting. A topic specifically about various aspects of software design, and design patterns in general, would be interesting. I wonder if it would be considered too niche for a philosophy forum.

I'm in! I'm not sure how many others would be, though. There are a few programmers here, I know, but in my career I met many programmers who just did it to earn a wage. Very few wished to improve their design skills. There are always some who are interested in design, but IME they are few and far between. I look forward to being proven wrong...

But I think we have prolonged this derail as long as we ought, and should probably discuss axes of symmetry and axes of rotation instead. πŸ˜‰
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Scott wrote: ↑May 6th, 2021, 2:30 pm I am also not sure what you mean by "standard definition" exactly,
The conventional definition, the way it's usually defined in philosophy contexts, at least.
The reason that the standard definition is the meaning of a declarative sentence, rather than being the sentence itself, is that most people want to say that "Snow is white" and "Schnee ist weiss" are the same proposition. They're not the same sentence.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:But I think we have prolonged this derail as long as we ought, and should probably discuss axes of symmetry and axes of rotation instead.
Yes, you're probably right.

Scott wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:Outside the mind. "Extra" as in words like "extra-terrestrial", "extracurricular" and "extraordinary". "Mental" as in "of the mind".
What is the mind as you use the term?
I use it in the normal way. The stuff that goes on in our brains which is directly accessible only to us.
Andy Clark and David Chalmers might argue that one's own smartphone is part of one's mind, that is according to their 1998 paper, The Extended Mind, as well as more recent interviews they have given on the same subject, including in episode 1811 of Closer to Truth, a show hosted by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn, who has a doctorate in neuroscience and is an author and editor of over 25 books.
OK. That sounds like an interesting argument.
Steve3007 wrote:Objective propositions are (in my usage) propositions about more than just my mental state.
Isn't any statement about ice cream a statement about something more than just your mental state?

Among other things, to me, objectivity would typically entailing being entirely non-subjective, with special emphasis on the word entirely.
OK. Fair enough. Statements about the tastiness of ice cream are also about ice cream. I can't argue with that. Objective propositions, or the objective aspect of a proposition, is the aspect that refers to extra-mental things - objects. I think I've put it like that before. Does that sound reasonable?
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 4th, 2021, 9:36 am
Steve3007 wrote: ↑May 4th, 2021, 6:06 am Any thoughts on this?
Yes. I think this topic is an investigation into objectivity, not screws, but please correct me if I'm wrong.


No I think it is a perfect and simple demonstration of the absurdity of another thread.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:It's difficult or impossible to compare the 'objectiveness' of two things. "Objective" isn't a comparative term; it's not comparative, it's absolute.
But that is the big irony.
To claim objectivity you still have to have a point of view from which you choose to distance yourself.
There really is no view from nowhere.
Claims of objectivity are almost always followed by scoffs of derision, and claims of bias.
When science does it, it can be successful, but still the observer or ever present.
If you think you can show me an objective statement, give it a go!
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote:Left and right as directions go on "in a straight line" indefinitely, are you saying that the universe as a whole has some kind of chirality?
The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:12 pm
Atla wrote:Left and right as directions go on "in a straight line" indefinitely, are you saying that the universe as a whole has some kind of chirality?
The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.
Yeah and they are unrelated to the directions that were discussed.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 4:03 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:12 pm
Atla wrote:Left and right as directions go on "in a straight line" indefinitely, are you saying that the universe as a whole has some kind of chirality?
The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.
Yeah and they are unrelated to the directions that were discussed.
"They" what?
If you want me to respond you'll have to be more specific.
My comment was a direct response to your question.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:It's difficult or impossible to compare the 'objectiveness' of two things. "Objective" isn't a comparative term; it's not comparative, it's absolute.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:07 pm But that is the big irony.
To claim objectivity you still have to have a point of view from which you choose to distance yourself.
There really is no view from nowhere.
Claims of objectivity are almost always followed by scoffs of derision, and claims of bias.
When science does it, it can be successful, but still the observer or ever present.

If you think you can show me an objective statement, give it a go!

I wouldn't dream of it! I have long promoted the opinion that Objectivism is just an analytic philosopher's auto-erotic fantasy. A sad, pathetic, and desperate search for certainty.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 8th, 2021, 7:14 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:It's difficult or impossible to compare the 'objectiveness' of two things. "Objective" isn't a comparative term; it's not comparative, it's absolute.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:07 pm But that is the big irony.
To claim objectivity you still have to have a point of view from which you choose to distance yourself.
There really is no view from nowhere.
Claims of objectivity are almost always followed by scoffs of derision, and claims of bias.
When science does it, it can be successful, but still the observer or ever present.

If you think you can show me an objective statement, give it a go!

I wouldn't dream of it! I have long promoted the opinion that Objectivism is just an analytic philosopher's auto-erotic fantasy. A sad, pathetic, and desperate search for certainty.
Indeed. And there are plenty of those spaffing all over the Forum!
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 4:37 pm
Atla wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 4:03 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:12 pm
Atla wrote:Left and right as directions go on "in a straight line" indefinitely, are you saying that the universe as a whole has some kind of chirality?
The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.
Yeah and they are unrelated to the directions that were discussed.
"They" what?
If you want me to respond you'll have to be more specific.
My comment was a direct response to your question.
Direction and chirality, two different things. As usual this is too complicated for you, what do I gain from your responses?
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: ↑May 8th, 2021, 8:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 4:37 pm
Atla wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 4:03 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:12 pm

The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.
Yeah and they are unrelated to the directions that were discussed.
"They" what?
If you want me to respond you'll have to be more specific.
My comment was a direct response to your question.
Direction and chirality, two different things. As usual this is too complicated for you, what do I gain from your responses?
You are, once again, confused.
Please take a breath and read carefully.
Let's see what happens when I replace your answer for the query I made.
1) You said "Yeah and they are unrelated to the directions that were discussed."
2) I asked "They" what?
3) You replied ; "direction and chirality".
4) so what you mean to say is the following, by replacing "they" with answer in 3.
gives:
"Yeah and direction and chirality are unrelated to the directions that were discussed."
Which is gibberish; confused gibberish.

This might beg the question, what directions were discussed that are not related direction and chirality.
You are either crazy, confsed or have just made an error - possibly all three.

May be we could start again..
I said:

The universe has chirality. It is not itself chirality, nor is it handed.
It has chirality because it has spirals. Because electrons are left handed. Because molecules have chirality.

In other words chirality exists in the universe.
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Re: Do right-handed screws objectively exist?

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 8th, 2021, 7:14 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:It's difficult or impossible to compare the 'objectiveness' of two things. "Objective" isn't a comparative term; it's not comparative, it's absolute.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 7th, 2021, 2:07 pm But that is the big irony.
To claim objectivity you still have to have a point of view from which you choose to distance yourself.
There really is no view from nowhere.
Claims of objectivity are almost always followed by scoffs of derision, and claims of bias.
When science does it, it can be successful, but still the observer or ever present.

If you think you can show me an objective statement, give it a go!

I wouldn't dream of it! I have long promoted the opinion that Objectivism is just an analytic philosopher's auto-erotic fantasy. A sad, pathetic, and desperate search for certainty.
Come on, you aren't as incompetent as Sculptor or TS. Surely you understand the difference between genuine Objectivism (that sad, pathetic, desperate search for, belief in certainty), and modern Scientific Objectivism, which is a striving towards objectivity, but it's always a pseudo-objectivity?
True philosophy points to the Moon
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