Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 8th, 2021, 2:47 pm Pattern Chaser
To me, this isn't talking about intuition, it's about creativity and imagination (within which intuition plays a key role, of course). It's about realising that there is art at the very heart of science, the art of creativity. Getting new ideas; linking existing ideas together in new ways (as Einstein describes); inventing a radical new experiment; and so on.
Do you define creative art as something new or as I do as an aid in helping man to remember what has been forgotten? [...] What does creativity mean to you? What is its value?

To be creative is to create something new. It could be wholly new, or it could be a new combination of existing things. It isn't remembering things that have been forgotten. If I create something new to me, but was actually created by someone else in the past, that's still valid. But I don't think I subscribe to some kind of race memory, in this sense. Creativity, imagination and metaphysics are attractive ideas to muse about, but not for most people (sadly). I can't really see that there's any more to it than that.
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 9th, 2021, 8:49 am
Nick_A wrote: May 8th, 2021, 2:47 pm Pattern Chaser
To me, this isn't talking about intuition, it's about creativity and imagination (within which intuition plays a key role, of course). It's about realising that there is art at the very heart of science, the art of creativity. Getting new ideas; linking existing ideas together in new ways (as Einstein describes); inventing a radical new experiment; and so on.
Do you define creative art as something new or as I do as an aid in helping man to remember what has been forgotten? [...] What does creativity mean to you? What is its value?

To be creative is to create something new. It could be wholly new, or it could be a new combination of existing things. It isn't remembering things that have been forgotten. If I create something new to me, but was actually created by someone else in the past, that's still valid. But I don't think I subscribe to some kind of race memory, in this sense. Creativity, imagination and metaphysics are attractive ideas to muse about, but not for most people (sadly). I can't really see that there's any more to it than that.
As I see it, Man doesn't create anything. What we call creation is just normal expression. Creation is changing one quality of being into another. When a plant becomes an animal, it is an act of creation but when a dog changes its size to adapt to its environment it is just nature expressing herself.

When a visual artist expresses himself in a work of art it is an act of expression. However when an artist remembering something from the depth of his being that has been forgotten and transmits it to another, art has taken place.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 9th, 2021, 3:00 pm When a plant becomes an animal, it is an act of creation...

You'll forgive me, I hope, if I have never encountered or heard of a plant "becoming" an animal. That isn't creation, that's magic. 😉
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 10th, 2021, 6:57 am
Nick_A wrote: May 9th, 2021, 3:00 pm When a plant becomes an animal, it is an act of creation...

You'll forgive me, I hope, if I have never encountered or heard of a plant "becoming" an animal. That isn't creation, that's magic. 😉
Man is a creature of reaction so by definition doesn't create. Man adapts to circumstances.

Sometimes in deep meditation or contemplation a person uses a higher quality of intellect called noesis which enables a person to consciously remember universal truths related to the forms. When depicted in art it is creative by transmitting a higher quality of intellect into a lower one.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 9th, 2021, 3:00 pm When a plant becomes an animal, it is an act of creation...
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 10th, 2021, 6:57 am You'll forgive me, I hope, if I have never encountered or heard of a plant "becoming" an animal. That isn't creation, that's magic. 😉
Nick_A wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:43 pm Man is a creature of reaction so by definition doesn't create. Man adapts to circumstances.

Sometimes in deep meditation or contemplation a person uses a higher quality of intellect called noesis which enables a person to consciously remember universal truths related to the forms. When depicted in art it is creative by transmitting a higher quality of intellect into a lower one.
So man cannot create or discover, but only recreate or rediscover? This seems to lead to a sort of infinite Groundhog Day, which I find hard to accept. You seem to be saying that everything we know, or can know, was somehow known to us in the past, but magically forgotten.
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 11th, 2021, 5:58 am
Nick_A wrote: May 9th, 2021, 3:00 pm When a plant becomes an animal, it is an act of creation...
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 10th, 2021, 6:57 am You'll forgive me, I hope, if I have never encountered or heard of a plant "becoming" an animal. That isn't creation, that's magic. 😉
Nick_A wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:43 pm Man is a creature of reaction so by definition doesn't create. Man adapts to circumstances.

Sometimes in deep meditation or contemplation a person uses a higher quality of intellect called noesis which enables a person to consciously remember universal truths related to the forms. When depicted in art it is creative by transmitting a higher quality of intellect into a lower one.
So man cannot create or discover, but only recreate or rediscover? This seems to lead to a sort of infinite Groundhog Day, which I find hard to accept. You seem to be saying that everything we know, or can know, was somehow known to us in the past, but magically forgotten.
Yes. It is the idea of Ecclesiastes 3. There is nothing new under the sun. Everything repeats under the sun. It is all meaningless. For Pattern -chaser, the patterns repeat.

3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account.

16 And I saw something else under the sun:

In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

17 I said to myself,

“God will bring into judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time to judge every deed.”

18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Ah, OK. I respect your religious beliefs, but this isn't what I anticipated, or what I thought we were discussing. 👍
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 11th, 2021, 11:30 am Ah, OK. I respect your religious beliefs, but this isn't what I anticipated, or what I thought we were discussing. 👍
The idea isn't religious; it is psychological. Does everything in the world repeat? Is it meaningless under the sun. What it means to be under the sun is explained in Plato's divided line analogy. It is basic Plato. It has nothing to do with a personal God.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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"There's nothing new under the sun" is a proverbial truism. As such, it has use and value. But it is equally true to observe that every event that takes place within the universe causes the whole universe to change, so everything under the sun (and beyond) is new and different, in that sense. 👍
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 12th, 2021, 1:20 pm "There's nothing new under the sun" is a proverbial truism. As such, it has use and value. But it is equally true to observe that every event that takes place within the universe causes the whole universe to change, so everything under the sun (and beyond) is new and different, in that sense. 👍
Consider a kaleidoscope under the sun. It the parts are always changing as the universe eats itself but these changes follow the expanding and contracting of cyclical laws, nothing essentially changes.
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
Nothing under the sun changes, everything repeats.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 12th, 2021, 5:12 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 12th, 2021, 1:20 pm "There's nothing new under the sun" is a proverbial truism. As such, it has use and value. But it is equally true to observe that every event that takes place within the universe causes the whole universe to change, so everything under the sun (and beyond) is new and different, in that sense. 👍
Consider a kaleidoscope under the sun. It the parts are always changing as the universe eats itself but these changes follow the expanding and contracting of cyclical laws, nothing essentially changes.
So change is not really change at all - "nothing essentially changes". Surely this can only be the case if the universe is static and unchanging?
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2021, 9:55 am
Nick_A wrote: May 12th, 2021, 5:12 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 12th, 2021, 1:20 pm "There's nothing new under the sun" is a proverbial truism. As such, it has use and value. But it is equally true to observe that every event that takes place within the universe causes the whole universe to change, so everything under the sun (and beyond) is new and different, in that sense. 👍
Consider a kaleidoscope under the sun. It the parts are always changing as the universe eats itself but these changes follow the expanding and contracting of cyclical laws, nothing essentially changes.
So change is not really change at all - "nothing essentially changes". Surely this can only be the case if the universe is static and unchanging?
The East calls this process the breath of Brahma. It isn't static
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
Time is a vertical process. Exhalation creates our universe while inhalation draws the universe back to the source. Change refers to qualities of being or the complimentary cycles of involution (away from the source) and evolution (the return to the source)

The universe eats itself but nothing really changes since energy is neither created or destroyed. Everything repeats.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 13th, 2021, 4:17 pm The universe eats itself but nothing really changes since energy is neither created or destroyed. Everything repeats.

When even the tiniest event takes place within the universe, the universe assumes a new, unique, and previously unseen configuration. This is change, and it produces something new, that has never existed before, and will never exist again, once another change has taken place. In this sense, nothing repeats, ever. That matter and energy are conserved does not alter what I've said. A new configuration of existing components is still new and different.
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 14th, 2021, 7:35 am
Nick_A wrote: May 13th, 2021, 4:17 pm The universe eats itself but nothing really changes since energy is neither created or destroyed. Everything repeats.

When even the tiniest event takes place within the universe, the universe assumes a new, unique, and previously unseen configuration. This is change, and it produces something new, that has never existed before, and will never exist again, once another change has taken place. In this sense, nothing repeats, ever. That matter and energy are conserved does not alter what I've said. A new configuration of existing components is still new and different.
When a kaleidoscope turns and changes the position of the materials within it, has anything new been created or just the reshuffling of what has always been? The universe is that way. Everything is in constant change within the eternal unchanging.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Metaphysical Repression

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Nick_A wrote: May 14th, 2021, 9:48 am Everything is in constant change within the eternal unchanging.
I don't feel I can respond to such vague mysticism. Sorry.
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