Lesbian are not men, they are estrogen machines instead. I never agree when someone uses the appeal of Most agree. Is it possible to detail how they are the same and with the same cause is the interesting thing if it is true? Without detail, it is difficult to consider it.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 1:04 pmI think it is OK in this thread, though both have been subjects of numerous ones in the past.mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 4:58 amI am interested in your ideas on that. Should it be a new thread or ok in this one?LuckyR wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 1:37 amI disagree, the only difference between racism and sexism is the superficial details.mystery wrote: ↑June 14th, 2021, 11:51 pm
I can understand the feeling about it, but this argument does not flow logically. You are suggesting that the root cause is the shame of sexual impulse. I agree that the impulse is in the path but before the rejection. The rejection is between the impulse and the hate.
Many mental health issues are about finding the proper causes and adjusting something to have a different path. In that, we are agreed, but it is not shaming in the man, although perhaps shame of the rejection. Without the rejection, nothing to have the shame of.
Women also have strong urges and at certain times of the month will actively hunt down a man. But that is not the thing of the issue in this case. Men however do not reject very often, but it does happen. A few times when I have rejected a woman nicely, some hate develops.
I don't see racism and misogyny as the same cause. Would be happy to discuss racism in a different thread sometime, that is another interesting topic.
It might be that I only see those details as more important, or there is something I am missing.
Most agree that there isn't a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice, that is they are examples of the same action on two different variables.
My point is that prejudice based on sexual orientation is basically the same as is gender.
All are "us" vs "them" issues. If misogyny was rejection based, lesbians who got rejected a lot would also display misogyny, yet they don't.
What is the root cause of misogyny?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Rejection is a thing.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 5:58 pmWhat exactly do you mean if remove the rejection? Rejection is not a thing, it is denying access to the body. The only way removal of rejection can happen is if the man forces himself, which is rape. Yes, we agree women should not be raped.
A woman should for sure reject what she does not want. I think we are in agreement on this, if not pls tell.
The man can learn to deal with the rejection in a more useful way, also the man can learn how to behave so rejection does not occur or occur as often.
The woman does not need imo to change for this issue. This is a man's issue to solve about themselves. We completely agree that going to hate in response to rejection is bad. We disagree on how the man should deal with it in his mind. What I assume a woman would want is for it to stop, period. I would expect a woman might consider any path that she does not need to contribute to that would lead to a solution as a useful thing. Some men on the other hand will not like it because it places blame on men, directly on men and does not allow for an excuse such as mental illness or other excuses that are based on lack of motivation.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:04 pmLesbian are not men, they are estrogen machines instead. I never agree when someone uses the appeal of Most agree. Is it possible to detail how they are the same and with the same cause is the interesting thing if it is true? Without detail, it is difficult to consider it.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 1:04 pmI think it is OK in this thread, though both have been subjects of numerous ones in the past.
Most agree that there isn't a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice, that is they are examples of the same action on two different variables.
My point is that prejudice based on sexual orientation is basically the same as is gender.
All are "us" vs "them" issues. If misogyny was rejection based, lesbians who got rejected a lot would also display misogyny, yet they don't.
In some cases, Lesbian does go to hate if rejected.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
If rejection is a cause, are there any crimes or hateful acts that cannot be argued result of rejection? Breaking into a car and stealing it, because the door lock rejected? Muugging an old lady and stealing her money, because she rejected his request for money? Can we list the number crimes caused by rejection?mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:11 pmRejection is a thing.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 5:58 pmWhat exactly do you mean if remove the rejection? Rejection is not a thing, it is denying access to the body. The only way removal of rejection can happen is if the man forces himself, which is rape. Yes, we agree women should not be raped.
A woman should for sure reject what she does not want. I think we are in agreement on this, if not pls tell.
The man can learn to deal with the rejection in a more useful way, also the man can learn how to behave so rejection does not occur or occur as often.
The woman does not need imo to change for this issue. This is a man's issue to solve about themselves. We completely agree that going to hate in response to rejection is bad. We disagree on how the man should deal with it in his mind. What I assume a woman would want is for it to stop, period. I would expect a woman might consider any path that she does not need to contribute to that would lead to a solution as a useful thing. Some men on the other hand will not like it because it places blame on men, directly on men and does not allow for an excuse such as mental illness or other excuses that are based on lack of motivation.
Breaking into a house and robing.
Beating up your employees because the rejected low wages?
Beating up the customer because …
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
There is no logical reason that lesbians (women, as you correctly pointed out) can't hate women, so my point is still valid.mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:04 pmLesbian are not men, they are estrogen machines instead. I never agree when someone uses the appeal of Most agree. Is it possible to detail how they are the same and with the same cause is the interesting thing if it is true? Without detail, it is difficult to consider it.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 1:04 pmI think it is OK in this thread, though both have been subjects of numerous ones in the past.
Most agree that there isn't a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice, that is they are examples of the same action on two different variables.
My point is that prejudice based on sexual orientation is basically the same as is gender.
All are "us" vs "them" issues. If misogyny was rejection based, lesbians who got rejected a lot would also display misogyny, yet they don't.
So you feel there is a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice. OK, I'd love to hear it. Please elaborate.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
yes, in some truth it is like you tell. I would not suggest any one of the cases you tell that the rejection is wrong, but it is a rejection all the same. if the person did give what was asked the crime is not.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 9:12 pmIf rejection is a cause, are there any crimes or hateful acts that cannot be argued result of rejection? Breaking into a car and stealing it, because the door lock rejected? Muugging an old lady and stealing her money, because she rejected his request for money? Can we list the number crimes caused by rejection?mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:11 pmRejection is a thing.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 5:58 pmWhat exactly do you mean if remove the rejection? Rejection is not a thing, it is denying access to the body. The only way removal of rejection can happen is if the man forces himself, which is rape. Yes, we agree women should not be raped.
A woman should for sure reject what she does not want. I think we are in agreement on this, if not pls tell.
The man can learn to deal with the rejection in a more useful way, also the man can learn how to behave so rejection does not occur or occur as often.
The woman does not need imo to change for this issue. This is a man's issue to solve about themselves. We completely agree that going to hate in response to rejection is bad. We disagree on how the man should deal with it in his mind. What I assume a woman would want is for it to stop, period. I would expect a woman might consider any path that she does not need to contribute to that would lead to a solution as a useful thing. Some men on the other hand will not like it because it places blame on men, directly on men and does not allow for an excuse such as mental illness or other excuses that are based on lack of motivation.
Breaking into a house and robing.
Beating up your employees because the rejected low wages?
Beating up the customer because …
But based on this we can work it backward.
- takeing things of value usually is a result of not enough money and that is a problem that can be fixed.
- employees can quit and find a different job, I have done it often for the very reason.
- not sure how to think about beating up a customer.
Now there is more to this romantic thing than just sex.
Many a man develops a complete Disney-based fairy tale with some lady before she even knows who they are. In his mind, they are already married, before he ever talks to her. And then she tells no, I don't want to talk to you. She has every right to do this and should. This very normal man is deeply impacted by this simple rejection. The man will need to learn why he was rejected. No blame is with the woman.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
I was hoping you would take the lead, and detail why they are the same. I'll go ahead and startLuckyR wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 2:18 amThere is no logical reason that lesbians (women, as you correctly pointed out) can't hate women, so my point is still valid.mystery wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:04 pmLesbian are not men, they are estrogen machines instead. I never agree when someone uses the appeal of Most agree. Is it possible to detail how they are the same and with the same cause is the interesting thing if it is true? Without detail, it is difficult to consider it.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 1:04 pmI think it is OK in this thread, though both have been subjects of numerous ones in the past.
Most agree that there isn't a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice, that is they are examples of the same action on two different variables.
My point is that prejudice based on sexual orientation is basically the same as is gender.
All are "us" vs "them" issues. If misogyny was rejection based, lesbians who got rejected a lot would also display misogyny, yet they don't.
So you feel there is a substantive difference between racial and religious prejudice. OK, I'd love to hear it. Please elaborate.
I try very hard to not be racist, and by that admission, I probably am in some amount. One of the key points is culture vs race. I am definitely a culturist meaning some ways of doing things I think are better than others and many of those are based on culture. Usually, culture follows the race. The root cause of racism is the need to be in a pack. The need for security, to be one of a group. But can not be in a group unless a groups exist. The race is an easy way to the group. Culture is something else. Often if someone of a race is acting out of culture they will get much shame from the race they are a member of.
Nothing to do with romantic rejection and sexual drive.
I get the idea that both are unfounded hate and so the same. But neither is unfounded hate, they both have cause and the cause is different. Anyone that groups them together would never find a solution to them, in my opinion. Pls, tell the opposing viewpoint of why they are the same.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2021, 12:16 pm Something in the man triggers hate toward women. Do you disagree with this?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:04 am If we remove the misogyny, the path will flow differently.
If we remove the man, the path will flow differently.
If we remove the woman, the path will flow differently.
If we substitute the man for another man who is not a misogynist, the path will flow differently.
And so on.
Rejection is not sufficient to give rise to misogynistic behaviour. It occurs only when the man is a misogynist. Rejection often happens, but a misogynistic response to it does not, except when the man is a misogynist. It is misogyny, not rejection, that is the common factor.
- Rejection of a man is sometimes followed by a misogynistic response, but only if the man is a misogynist
- Other social events (unaccompanied by rejection) are sometimes followed by a misogynistic response, but only if the man is a misogynist.
- The rejection of a man is never followed by a misogynistic response if the man is not a misogynist.
- Misogynistic behaviour never occurs - despite the presence of rejection, or some other triggering event - unless the man in question is a misogynist.
This topic looks for a cause of misogyny (not a cause of, or trigger for, misogynistic behaviour). Your focus is fixed on rejection, which might trigger misogynistic behaviour in a misogynist, but is not a cause of misogyny itself.
I suppose it's possible that continued rejection might lead, in time, to the emergence of misogyny. I don't know that this is true, but I don't know that it isn't, either. The point here is that, if misogyny does emerge for this reason, it is because the man's response to rejection is aberrant, and I offer empirical, repeatable, testable evidence to back this up: rejection does not lead to misogyny or to misogynistic behaviour in the vast majority of men.
How can we agree or disagree? I offer my thoughts, and you ignore them, and assert again (and again) that "rejection is the direct cause of misogyny".
You did not respond to any of my post, or any of the points made in it.
You claim to have empirical knowledge and experience that most of us do not share - you say you have experience of many misogynistic men. So why do you not share this evidence with us, choosing instead simply to reassert your own conclusions again and again?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Humans have always practised a 'them and us' mentality, which has its good points (e.g. social-group cohesion) and its bad ones (you need me to list them?). It's a sort of blanket thing: it covers everything and everyone. Everyone who is not of "us" is of "them". Everyone.mystery wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 7:04 am I try very hard to not be racist, and by that admission, I probably am in some amount. One of the key points is culture vs race. I am definitely a culturist meaning some ways of doing things I think are better than others and many of those are based on culture. Usually, culture follows the race. The root cause of racism is the need to be in a pack. The need for security, to be one of a group. But can not be in a group unless a groups exist. The race is an easy way to the group. Culture is something else. Often if someone of a race is acting out of culture they will get much shame from the race they are a member of.
But racism selects a particular subset of humanity and targets them, even though there are many other humans not included in the target population who are definitely "them", not "us". I think this distinguishes discrimination from simple them-and-us, doesn't it?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Also, some people are more inclined to love generally and others are more inclined to hatred. I find that hatred of women is often accompanied by homophobia, racism, and a general intolerance of "the other".
Sometimes the hatred is passed on by family, sometimes it's the result of negative experiences but, whatever the cause, all hatred is ultimately driven by fear. Fear of the unknown, of the other, of oneself. Again, that's the law of averages at play - some will experience far less fear than usual and others will be highly fearful.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
You're half right. Statistically there will be a normal distribution of attitudes from love to hate of every possible category of group. However, misogyny does not follow a normal distribution. Misogyny is more heavily weighted to the male gender than would be expected by the proportion of heterosexual males in the population. Therefore the root cause has more to do with the male gender than the impact of women on relationships, such as rejection (because if the root cause was the impact of women on relationships, then those impacts would be evenly distributed among all of the types of relationships that women participate in, not just the ones with men).Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 11:48 pm Isn't it just a matter of probabilities? Some people will especially love the opposite sex, and others will have a special aversion.
Also, some people are more inclined to love generally and others are more inclined to hatred. I find that hatred of women is often accompanied by homophobia, racism, and a general intolerance of "the other".
Sometimes the hatred is passed on by family, sometimes it's the result of negative experiences but, whatever the cause, all hatred is ultimately driven by fear. Fear of the unknown, of the other, of oneself. Again, that's the law of averages at play - some will experience far less fear than usual and others will be highly fearful.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Most every time I have seen it is the culture that is being targeted, not the race. It just happens that the race is usually tied to culture.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 11:09 amHumans have always practised a 'them and us' mentality, which has its good points (e.g. social-group cohesion) and its bad ones (you need me to list them?). It's a sort of blanket thing: it covers everything and everyone. Everyone who is not of "us" is of "them". Everyone.mystery wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 7:04 am I try very hard to not be racist, and by that admission, I probably am in some amount. One of the key points is culture vs race. I am definitely a culturist meaning some ways of doing things I think are better than others and many of those are based on culture. Usually, culture follows the race. The root cause of racism is the need to be in a pack. The need for security, to be one of a group. But can not be in a group unless a groups exist. The race is an easy way to the group. Culture is something else. Often if someone of a race is acting out of culture they will get much shame from the race they are a member of.
But racism selects a particular subset of humanity and targets them, even though there are many other humans not included in the target population who are definitely "them", not "us". I think this distinguishes discrimination from simple them-and-us, doesn't it?
I can remember ppl telling me how they hate all <pick some race>. Then later they would point out how they really like some person that is also a member of that same race. They would do it on purpose because they are point out that it is not the color or race that they do not like but the behavior and culture that is common with that race.
Yet another topic that we get blocked on for years because of not finding the true cause and allowing political motivations to teach how it is. It is not really as shallow usually as a color thing but is in fact a behavior thing. But if we address it that way and analyze it, some of the arguments are true and that is not convenient.
At the core of this are romance, power, and the need to be great, with ppl using any tool they can think of to achieve those.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Maybe we are telling the same thing.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 11:00 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2021, 12:16 pm Something in the man triggers hate toward women. Do you disagree with this?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 15th, 2021, 8:04 am If we remove the misogyny, the path will flow differently.
If we remove the man, the path will flow differently.
If we remove the woman, the path will flow differently.
If we substitute the man for another man who is not a misogynist, the path will flow differently.
And so on.
Rejection is not sufficient to give rise to misogynistic behaviour. It occurs only when the man is a misogynist. Rejection often happens, but a misogynistic response to it does not, except when the man is a misogynist. It is misogyny, not rejection, that is the common factor.
- Rejection of a man is sometimes followed by a misogynistic response, but only if the man is a misogynist
- Other social events (unaccompanied by rejection) are sometimes followed by a misogynistic response, but only if the man is a misogynist.
- The rejection of a man is never followed by a misogynistic response if the man is not a misogynist.
- Misogynistic behaviour never occurs - despite the presence of rejection, or some other triggering event - unless the man in question is a misogynist.
This topic looks for a cause of misogyny (not a cause of, or trigger for, misogynistic behaviour). Your focus is fixed on rejection, which might trigger misogynistic behaviour in a misogynist, but is not a cause of misogyny itself.
I suppose it's possible that continued rejection might lead, in time, to the emergence of misogyny. I don't know that this is true, but I don't know that it isn't, either. The point here is that, if misogyny does emerge for this reason, it is because the man's response to rejection is aberrant, and I offer empirical, repeatable, testable evidence to back this up: rejection does not lead to misogyny or to misogynistic behaviour in the vast majority of men.How can we agree or disagree? I offer my thoughts, and you ignore them, and assert again (and again) that "rejection is the direct cause of misogyny".
You did not respond to any of my post, or any of the points made in it.
You claim to have empirical knowledge and experience that most of us do not share - you say you have experience of many misogynistic men. So why do you not share this evidence with us, choosing instead simply to reassert your own conclusions again and again?
Some men can be rejected by women and it is no big deal for them.
Some men can be rejected by women and it IS a big deal for them.
- I think we agree on that.
If a woman does not reject a man, he does not develop hate for the woman or women in general.
- I think we agree on that. (some other cases maybe yes due to any number of odd situations)
What you tell us that the woman rejecting the man has no impact on his feelings or emotions.
- we disagree on that.
Do I have it right so far?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Sure, madly horny young male primates may react with anger if sufficiently sexually thwarted. The itch that cannot be scratched.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 17th, 2021, 1:11 amYou're half right. Statistically there will be a normal distribution of attitudes from love to hate of every possible category of group. However, misogyny does not follow a normal distribution. Misogyny is more heavily weighted to the male gender than would be expected by the proportion of heterosexual males in the population. Therefore the root cause has more to do with the male gender than the impact of women on relationships, such as rejection (because if the root cause was the impact of women on relationships, then those impacts would be evenly distributed among all of the types of relationships that women participate in, not just the ones with men).Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 11:48 pm Isn't it just a matter of probabilities? Some people will especially love the opposite sex, and others will have a special aversion.
Also, some people are more inclined to love generally and others are more inclined to hatred. I find that hatred of women is often accompanied by homophobia, racism, and a general intolerance of "the other".
Sometimes the hatred is passed on by family, sometimes it's the result of negative experiences but, whatever the cause, all hatred is ultimately driven by fear. Fear of the unknown, of the other, of oneself. Again, that's the law of averages at play - some will experience far less fear than usual and others will be highly fearful.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
yes sometimes. the deeper anger comes from emotions, the emotion comes from a lack of self-sexual acceptance. Often the man that is openly just looking for sex is already well equipped to deal with rejection. The ones that are covertly looing for it via romance and emotions (Disney style) are the ones that make more of an issue. They usually don't know the reasons themself due to low self-esteem.Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 17th, 2021, 2:09 amSure, madly horny young male primates may react with anger if sufficiently sexually thwarted. The itch that cannot be scratched.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 17th, 2021, 1:11 amYou're half right. Statistically there will be a normal distribution of attitudes from love to hate of every possible category of group. However, misogyny does not follow a normal distribution. Misogyny is more heavily weighted to the male gender than would be expected by the proportion of heterosexual males in the population. Therefore the root cause has more to do with the male gender than the impact of women on relationships, such as rejection (because if the root cause was the impact of women on relationships, then those impacts would be evenly distributed among all of the types of relationships that women participate in, not just the ones with men).Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 16th, 2021, 11:48 pm Isn't it just a matter of probabilities? Some people will especially love the opposite sex, and others will have a special aversion.
Also, some people are more inclined to love generally and others are more inclined to hatred. I find that hatred of women is often accompanied by homophobia, racism, and a general intolerance of "the other".
Sometimes the hatred is passed on by family, sometimes it's the result of negative experiences but, whatever the cause, all hatred is ultimately driven by fear. Fear of the unknown, of the other, of oneself. Again, that's the law of averages at play - some will experience far less fear than usual and others will be highly fearful.
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