What is the root cause of misogyny?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 20th, 2021, 1:51 pm
mystery wrote: July 20th, 2021, 11:00 am In this subject a key point is to understand how the female decides and for what reasons...
No, it absolutely isn't. You have confirmed many times in this lengthy discussion that the misogyny lies with the man, and that a woman is free to decline sexual congress with any partner, for any reason, without any form of blame or reproach. Therefore, it specifically does not matter why she decided as she did. We have already determined that her reason(s) are irrelevant. It could be that her reasons are unclear or unknown, even to her, but that's OK too. Only the misogyny, in which she has no part (other than as a victim), is relevant.

In this subject, the only key point is to understand how the man became a misogynist, and for what reasons. That's what the topic asks for, and that's the only course that might lead to any form of remedy or cure for misogyny.

N.B. the misogynistic man cannot sidestep his condition by somehow learning to be more attractive to women, so that he will not be rejected, and his subsequent outpouring of hatred would be avoided. He must learn not to hate women in the first place, or forever avoid the fairer sex, for their protection.
I want to somehow gently tell you that your very wrong.

Ever have a bug to fix and the only example was when interacting with a third-party component. All other test cases passed ok, but there is some other vendor's system that is interacted with and you don't have one to test with so you guess. When it doesn't work you eventually must get one of those systems to reverse engineer the test case and fix the bug. The actual fix is probably in the core of the module but you don't know the impact of the third-party component until you actually test it.

In this case, the woman is the third-party component and we must know what input she needs to get the output we want. If the man can learn that then the issue is solved.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 2286
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 2:39 am In this case, the woman is the third-party component and we must know what input she needs to get the output we want. If the man can learn that then the issue is solved.
This topic seeks a root cause, not a solution, but there we go.

This sentiment is seriously flawed. It says that, if a man can arrange things so that his misogynistic hatred of women is not provoked, he can pretend it doesn't exist. Feminists talk (disapprovingly) of the objectification of women, and it looks like that's what you're doing here. You consider and describe only the man's point of view, and how a man might "get the output we want". A woman's company (and maybe more than that) is not an "output" to be obtained. She is not there to be manipulated or coerced. She is not a thing to be f**ked. Those are the values of the century-before-last.

The man does not need to learn how to disguise his deformity while manipulating a woman into doing what he wants. He needs to address his deformity directly, not try to hide it. He needs to rid himself of the misogyny, which is the 'problem' to be 'solved'. The misogynist does not need relationship advice; he is far away from being able to take advantage of that.

First, he must learn to behave (socially) as other men do. Only then is he fit to be in the company of women. For as long as he remains a misogynist, he must be kept away from women, in the same way, and for the same reasons, as paedophiles are kept away from children. Modern thinking is that we consider the victims first, before anything or anyone else, and this thinking fits here like a glove.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 2286
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

[N.B. I consider misogyny as genuine and actual hatred for women, not as mild or casual distaste. My posts assume this.]
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 210
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:09 am [N.B. I consider misogyny as genuine and actual hatred for women, not as mild or casual distaste. My posts assume this.]
What we, as a society that believes in and want equality, face is the entrenchment of systematic misogyny into the very fabric of our lives. It is not just about a personal sexual life, that Mystery seems to focus on. It is about how women are f***ed in every aspect of life, in work, education, sports, in the very control of their body and reproduction. If you are Black and poor you are f**** twice over.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:06 am
mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 2:39 am In this case, the woman is the third-party component and we must know what input she needs to get the output we want. If the man can learn that then the issue is solved.
This topic seeks a root cause, not a solution, but there we go.

This sentiment is seriously flawed. It says that, if a man can arrange things so that his misogynistic hatred of women is not provoked, he can pretend it doesn't exist. Feminists talk (disapprovingly) of the objectification of women, and it looks like that's what you're doing here. You consider and describe only the man's point of view, and how a man might "get the output we want". A woman's company (and maybe more than that) is not an "output" to be obtained. She is not there to be manipulated or coerced. She is not a thing to be f**ked. Those are the values of the century-before-last.

The man does not need to learn how to disguise his deformity while manipulating a woman into doing what he wants. He needs to address his deformity directly, not try to hide it. He needs to rid himself of the misogyny, which is the 'problem' to be 'solved'. The misogynist does not need relationship advice; he is far away from being able to take advantage of that.

First, he must learn to behave (socially) as other men do. Only then is he fit to be in the company of women. For as long as he remains a misogynist, he must be kept away from women, in the same way, and for the same reasons, as paedophiles are kept away from children. Modern thinking is that we consider the victims first, before anything or anyone else, and this thinking fits here like a glove.
I agree, to get to the root cause requires following the cause chain. Or you can jump to hot buzz words and try to shut down the analysis because we know how it plays out and does not want to accept the results.

Men need to self-improve. Women like men that are of higher value.

I in no place have suggested manipulation as a solution, I am very much against that.

It really is as simple as giving good input to get desired output.

What women would want is a good man. If the man can become good the issue is solved.

Now.. define good...
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:22 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:09 am [N.B. I consider misogyny as genuine and actual hatred for women, not as mild or casual distaste. My posts assume this.]
What we, as a society that believes in and want equality, face is the entrenchment of systematic misogyny into the very fabric of our lives. It is not just about a personal sexual life, that Mystery seems to focus on. It is about how women are f***ed in every aspect of life, in work, education, sports, in the very control of their body and reproduction. If you are Black and poor you are f**** twice over.
I agree with equality but not with being equal. In this thread, we are talking about misogyny and asking why is it. That leads us to the path of romantic relations of which a huge part is a sex and sexual attraction.

I have a good number of reverse discrimination stories but I actively try to not focus on those because it doesn't help. Some of them are almost unbelievable but they happened.

I have to call BS on sports... look at the starting line for basketball and football on any professional team and tell me that it is all white men. Just saying... On the other side some cases are valid, for example, look closely at the top-tier engineers in most western companies. Dominated by white men. We can have another thread some time on that topic, it's interesting and sad.

It might also be fun to have a topic on why women hate men. Some valid stuff in that one also.

I can't yet see why it is so difficult to accept that if a guy is being unattractive that a woman would reject him romantically. And that this might bother the man and overtime if it happens often bother him enough to become jaded and then hate. Or if trust is broken by the woman, then the victim is the man and that can lead to hate.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 210
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:27 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:22 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:09 am [N.B. I consider misogyny as genuine and actual hatred for women, not as mild or casual distaste. My posts assume this.]
What we, as a society that believes in and want equality, face is the entrenchment of systematic misogyny into the very fabric of our lives. It is not just about a personal sexual life, that Mystery seems to focus on. It is about how women are f***ed in every aspect of life, in work, education, sports, in the very control of their body and reproduction. If you are Black and poor you are f**** twice over.
I agree with equality but not with being equal. In this thread, we are talking about misogyny and asking why is it. That leads us to the path of romantic relations of which a huge part is a sex and sexual attraction.

Snip…

I can't yet see why it is so difficult to accept that if a guy is being unattractive that a woman would reject him romantically. And that this might bother the man and overtime if it happens often bother him enough to become jaded and then hate. Or if trust is broken by the woman, then the victim is the man and that can lead to hate.
Misogyny is not about sex or romance. It is about hate and power and abuse. As long as you are unable to understand that it will remain a mystery to you.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:52 pm
mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:27 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:22 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2021, 9:09 am [N.B. I consider misogyny as genuine and actual hatred for women, not as mild or casual distaste. My posts assume this.]
What we, as a society that believes in and want equality, face is the entrenchment of systematic misogyny into the very fabric of our lives. It is not just about a personal sexual life, that Mystery seems to focus on. It is about how women are f***ed in every aspect of life, in work, education, sports, in the very control of their body and reproduction. If you are Black and poor you are f**** twice over.
I agree with equality but not with being equal. In this thread, we are talking about misogyny and asking why is it. That leads us to the path of romantic relations of which a huge part is a sex and sexual attraction.

Snip…

I can't yet see why it is so difficult to accept that if a guy is being unattractive that a woman would reject him romantically. And that this might bother the man and overtime if it happens often bother him enough to become jaded and then hate. Or if trust is broken by the woman, then the victim is the man and that can lead to hate.
Misogyny is not about sex or romance. It is about hate and power and abuse. As long as you are unable to understand that it will remain a mystery to you.
It is not a mystery to me at all. It is really clear

The word misogyny is defined as hatred of women. We are not talking about all the other competitive issues in the world but why do some men hate women. The largest percentage do so because of life experience when interacting with women. It is not something a baby is born with. If a child gets bitten by dogs they might develop fear or hate of dogs. Being rejected by women has another component other than just a rat in a maze. The man has a built-in desire for women that is impossible to dismiss without surgery or drugs. Being rejected by something or someone that they desire is a clear cause to generate hate.

I tried to focus on the solution vs just the cause as the woman is doing what she should, but is in the path of the issue.

Power abuse has nothing to do with any hate of women. Some men do abuse power to take advantage of women and or other men but for the men that have power that is not the cause of hate to women. That doesn't even make sense to tell that a man having power will cause hate for women.

If a man abused a woman it will not cause him to hate her, probably the opposite she would hate him.

If a woman abused a man, that could cause him to hate her.
Ecurb
Posts: 878
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Ecurb »

mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 10:16 pm

Power abuse has nothing to do with any hate of women. Some men do abuse power to take advantage of women and or other men but for the men that have power that is not the cause of hate to women. That doesn't even make sense to tell that a man having power will cause hate for women.

If a man abused a woman it will not cause him to hate her, probably the opposite she would hate him.

If a woman abused a man, that could cause him to hate her.
Incorrect. We can forgive others for abusing us, but we cannot forgive them when we abuse them. What caused prejudice against sub-Saharan Africans? We (white people) enslaved and abused them. We didn't want to think of ourselves as abusive, immoral jerks, so we developed a mythology about the inferiority of black people. The prejudice didn't CAUSE the discrimination. On the contrary. The slavery was the result of greed, not prejudice. The prejudice was the RESULT of the slavery.

"Cognitive dissonance" refers to a dissonance between one's self image, and the image the world and one's actions project back on a person. When we abuse others, we rationalize it by saying, "Well, they deserved it because of X and Y." When we refuse to grant women the vote, or promote them to executive positions, we invent reasons. When men beat women (which may not be the result of misogyny at all -- men also beat other men) they invent justifications, many of which involve bigotted generalizations about women.

If a man abuses a woman, it DOES cause him to hate her. He MUST either admit to being an a-hole, or justify his actions by claiming, "She deserved it."
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 210
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Ecurb wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am
mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 10:16 pm

Power abuse has nothing to do with any hate of women. Some men do abuse power to take advantage of women and or other men but for the men that have power that is not the cause of hate to women. That doesn't even make sense to tell that a man having power will cause hate for women.

If a man abused a woman it will not cause him to hate her, probably the opposite she would hate him.

If a woman abused a man, that could cause him to hate her.
Incorrect. We can forgive others for abusing us, but we cannot forgive them when we abuse them. What caused prejudice against sub-Saharan Africans? We (white people) enslaved and abused them. We didn't want to think of ourselves as abusive, immoral jerks, so we developed a mythology about the inferiority of black people. The prejudice didn't CAUSE the discrimination. On the contrary. The slavery was the result of greed, not prejudice. The prejudice was the RESULT of the slavery.

"Cognitive dissonance" refers to a dissonance between one's self image, and the image the world and one's actions project back on a person. When we abuse others, we rationalize it by saying, "Well, they deserved it because of X and Y." When we refuse to grant women the vote, or promote them to executive positions, we invent reasons. When men beat women (which may not be the result of misogyny at all -- men also beat other men) they invent justifications, many of which involve bigotted generalizations about women.

If a man abuses a woman, it DOES cause him to hate her. He MUST either admit to being an a-hole, or justify his actions by claiming, "She deserved it."
Insightful comments. The bolded: men beating other men and men beating women cannot be equated as the same and argued as misogyny or not. The reason for the violence matters. Men who rape AND mutilate women is not in the same league as violence between men when no sex is involved. Being mugged and raped and mutilated are very different animals. Only one is a hate crime and for a good reason.misogyny. Violence and abuse occurs among partners with no misogyny involved.
"The Serpent did not lie."
Atla
Posts: 1819
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Atla »

Ecurb wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am If a man abuses a woman, it DOES cause him to hate her. He MUST either admit to being an a-hole, or justify his actions by claiming, "She deserved it."
What an outlandish thing to say, most abusers don't "hate" their victims, they just abuse them. They usually don't care how they are seen.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Ecurb
Posts: 878
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Ecurb »

Atla wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 11:58 am
What an outlandish thing to say, most abusers don't "hate" their victims, they just abuse them. They usually don't care how they are seen.
The school of social psychology that studies this phenomenon is "Symbolic Interactionism". Practitioners such as Erving Goffman postulated that "cognitive dissonance" occurs when one's self-image is contradicted by the image one sees reflected back from other people. Everyone cares how he or she is seen. People will jump through many hoops to protect their self-image -- even going so far as learning to hate their victims.

Abusers are notorious for blaming their victims. Why? Well, they have to blame someone, and they'd prefer to avoid blaiming themselves.

Don't you think many of the torturers at Guantanamo learn to despise Muslim Terrorists? Even if they didn't hate them before they began their tortures, they would learn to detest them in order to justify their actions.
popeye1945
Posts: 628
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by popeye1945 »

The Bitches, they just won't listen, look what they make me do!
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Ecurb wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am
mystery wrote: July 21st, 2021, 10:16 pm

Power abuse has nothing to do with any hate of women. Some men do abuse power to take advantage of women and or other men but for the men that have power that is not the cause of hate to women. That doesn't even make sense to tell that a man having power will cause hate for women.

If a man abused a woman it will not cause him to hate her, probably the opposite she would hate him.

If a woman abused a man, that could cause him to hate her.
Incorrect. We can forgive others for abusing us, but we cannot forgive them when we abuse them. What caused prejudice against sub-Saharan Africans? We (white people) enslaved and abused them. We didn't want to think of ourselves as abusive, immoral jerks, so we developed a mythology about the inferiority of black people. The prejudice didn't CAUSE the discrimination. On the contrary. The slavery was the result of greed, not prejudice. The prejudice was the RESULT of the slavery.

"Cognitive dissonance" refers to a dissonance between one's self image, and the image the world and one's actions project back on a person. When we abuse others, we rationalize it by saying, "Well, they deserved it because of X and Y." When we refuse to grant women the vote, or promote them to executive positions, we invent reasons. When men beat women (which may not be the result of misogyny at all -- men also beat other men) they invent justifications, many of which involve bigotted generalizations about women.

If a man abuses a woman, it DOES cause him to hate her. He MUST either admit to being an a-hole, or justify his actions by claiming, "She deserved it."
processing.... so is your position that abuse is the cause of hate. In this case, that men develop hate for women because the men abuse the women? I am aware of many examples that the men did not, and developed hate from rejection. But I would like to consider your idea, I want to ensure I understand it first.

Misogyny is caused because men abuse women. I don't agree with that yet, but is that the idea?
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 300
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

popeye1945 wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 9:12 pm The Bitches, they just won't listen, look what they make me do!
yep, that's a man with no self-control, not masculine at all but emotional like a female.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021