How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sy Borg

I think that you are right that people are often less concerned about overcoming the ego due to stresses of life. I also think that when they are unable to fulfill the basic needs of the ego it is also likely that the ego will become fragile, leading to depression and other forms of mental suffering. An ego that lacks solidity may be a problem rather than an ego that needs to be overcome. We only have to think of how childhood deprivation and lack of supportive attachments has an affect on development. So, maintaining enough ego strength to survive amidst life may be a key issue in the current world.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Nick_A
I think that it is interesting how you link this issue to Plato's cave. I believe that conscious attention is extremely important in enabling us to see above the immersion in attachments. I also wonder if it is likely that those who are 'outsiders' in society who may be more likely to see beyond the deception of the shadows in the cave. I am using the term 'outsiders' in the way Colin Wilson used it to speak of people who perceive a bit differently, but he does point to the way in which suffering can jolt people towards greater awareness. He incorporates Guirjieff's argument that many are living robotically and need to wake up.

It is also interesting what you say about people getting to the point where machines are controlling human beings. It is hard to know where this will lead, because on one hand our devices give us power to communicate and share ideas, such as on this forum. However, it does seem that life is becoming more and more automated.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Tegularius

I wonder if people really do come to a greater state of attachment when they grow older, or how much of that is a mythic belief. From what I have seen of people at the end of their lives, in some ways at the latter stage they seem to be clinging so much. In some ways, the more one has experienced loss, there may be more clinging to what one has left, loved ones and treasured belongings. I am sure that it is variable though as each person is unique. However, what I am also thinking about is attachment to life itself and the will to live in itself.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Stevie

I find your exploration of 'defusion', and detachment in psychotherapy interesting. I have some training in psychotherapy and I felt that detachment is viewed very negatively amongst many therapy practitioners. So much emphasis is given to emotional awareness, especially in the perception of transference and countertransference. I am interested to know what you think about transference and emotions, in connection to the idea of defusion or attachment in therapy.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 9:40 am
JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 am This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
This is rather generalised.
What attachments do you think you can do without, or should do without?
And what are the ones you have to cling to?
What about your feelings of love for a child or parent? Keep or dump?
What about feelings of attachment to a roof over your head? Keep or dump?
What about loving a pet dog? Keep or dump?
What about the computational device that you are now using to read my post? Keep or dump?
DO you think detaching yourself from the concern about the future of the environment is a good one to get rid of?
[My highlighting.]

I suggest that this issue is less well illuminated by focussing on the details. It is a general idea, and maybe best considered in that way, if understanding is our goal.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
stevie
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:35 pm @ Stevie

I find your exploration of 'defusion', and detachment in psychotherapy interesting. I have some training in psychotherapy and I felt that detachment is viewed very negatively amongst many therapy practitioners. So much emphasis is given to emotional awareness, especially in the perception of transference and countertransference. I am interested to know what you think about transference and emotions, in connection to the idea of defusion or attachment in therapy.
Let me give you a quote from an ACT intro booklet:
Defusion (Watch Your Thinking)

Defusion means learning to “step back” and separate or detach from our thoughts, images, and memories. (The full term is “cognitive defusion,” but usually we just call it “defusion.”) Instead of getting caught up in our thoughts or being pushed around by them, we let them come and go as if they were just cars driving past outside our house. We step back and watch our thinking instead of getting tangled up in it. We see our thoughts for what they are—nothing more or less than words or pictures. We hold them lightly instead of clutching them tightly.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Sculptor1
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:38 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 9:40 am
JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 am This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
This is rather generalised.
What attachments do you think you can do without, or should do without?
And what are the ones you have to cling to?
What about your feelings of love for a child or parent? Keep or dump?
What about feelings of attachment to a roof over your head? Keep or dump?
What about loving a pet dog? Keep or dump?
What about the computational device that you are now using to read my post? Keep or dump?
DO you think detaching yourself from the concern about the future of the environment is a good one to get rid of?
[My highlighting.]

I suggest that this issue is less well illuminated by focussing on the details. It is a general idea, and maybe best considered in that way, if understanding is our goal.
What is your goal?
If you can't say what is valid detachment and what is valid attachment, then the entire thread is meaningless.
You can't even say what's wrong with attachment, if you are not willing to discuss what you are attached to.
No one is talking about anything meaningful. There is already some confusion about negative psychological detachment as if this were related.
I'll get back to you in a couple of days, or when the thread fizzes out and ask you again what you have gleaned.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on September 21st, 2021, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sculptor1
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sculptor1 »

JackDaydream wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:35 pm @Stevie

I find your exploration of 'defusion', and detachment in psychotherapy interesting. I have some training in psychotherapy and I felt that detachment is viewed very negatively amongst many therapy practitioners. So much emphasis is given to emotional awareness, especially in the perception of transference and countertransference. I am interested to know what you think about transference and emotions, in connection to the idea of defusion or attachment in therapy.
Psychological detachment is not the polar opposite of the sorts of material attachments suggested by the OP.
This is one example of how the whole thread is just a litany of confusion.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Stevie

Thanks for your reply, and I do think that stepping back and being free from entanglement is an essential aspect of the problem of attachment vs attachment in general. It is apparent in the context of psychotherapy and so many other aspects of life as an underlying philosophy problem.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Patternchaser

I am interested in the query which you gave of Sculptor1 about specific questions related to the nature of attachments. I would also be interested in your own perspective on the dichotomy of attachment and detachment if you wish to share your view.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sculptor1

You say that the thread is a 'litany of confusion' and stress that psychological detachment is not the polar of 'material oppositions', so I am interested to know what your view is because you have not presented it any clear way.
Nick_A
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Nick_A »

Jack
I think that it is interesting how you link this issue to Plato's cave. I believe that conscious attention is extremely important in enabling us to see above the immersion in attachments. I also wonder if it is likely that those who are 'outsiders' in society who may be more likely to see beyond the deception of the shadows in the cave. I am using the term 'outsiders' in the way Colin Wilson used it to speak of people who perceive a bit differently, but he does point to the way in which suffering can jolt people towards greater awareness. He incorporates Guirjieff's argument that many are living robotically and need to wake up.

It is also interesting what you say about people getting to the point where machines are controlling human beings. It is hard to know where this will lead, because on one hand our devices give us power to communicate and share ideas, such as on this forum. However, it does seem that life is becoming more and more auto
Simone is known as the Patron Saint of Outsiders. Her need for truth made it impossible to adapt to society by accepting culturally created attachments living her life for her. Most want to adapt to the attachments of cave life for meaning. She needed to leave Plato's cave and experience universal truth. She needed to experience what those like her will be condemned for. She practiced conscious attention

Leaving Plato's cave Plato describes as inwardly turning towards the light and away from the shadows. In Christianity it is called metanoia. Until a person has experienced metanoia they must defend their attachments and condemn turning towards the light as absurd and must be ridiculed. I have the highest regard for the outsider who has experienced the world and themselves within it as absurd and strives to awaken

I remember reading of a person who has come to experience that they are an idiot. They tell their friends who now think he is an idiot for saying such things. Now he is a complete idiot and in the ideal inner place to begin to "understand."
[Socrates] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by chewybrian »

JackDaydream wrote: September 21st, 2021, 5:54 pm
You say that the thread is a 'litany of confusion' and stress that psychological detachment is not the polar of 'material oppositions', so I am interested to know what your view is because you have not presented it any clear way.
The "litany of confusion" is a common complaint in many threads where the exact definition of the concepts to be discussed is not laid out in detail. People see the subject at hand from different perspectives and drift around a bit, and sometimes misunderstand or talk past each other. I like it very much! Discussing things in very specific terms shuts out people with different ideas. As long as each person is clear about their own framework and supports their own ideas well enough, I think the open discussions are more interesting and enlightening than the ones where we are expected to keep our thoughts within the lines of the predetermined understanding of the OP. When the OP is willing or eager to learn rather than preach, then we all get a chance to learn (or to preach).

Psychological detachment seems to be about viewing a situation rationally and rather objectively, as if it was happening to someone else rather than you. But it is not the opposite of attachment to material things. Psychological detachment is a temporary state of attempted objectivity that allows you to decide what to do or when to stop being emotionally attached to certain outcomes. If you achieve that detachment, you may or may not decide to let go of certain material things. But, the detachment itself is not opposed to ownership or use or love of those things, it only helps you to judge their value more fairly. Some people have a desire to remove all attachment from material things, or to detach themselves from the self or ego, and both of these seem to be different from psychological detachment.

When I read this definition of psychological detachment below, I just see a restatement of some of the core principles of stoic philosophy, but I guess others will see it differently. Either way, I don't think it says that you need to be opposed to the use or ownership of any particular thing, unless viewing it objectively causes you to see that it is in your interest to let it go.
Detachment

Detachment can best be described as a process of letting go. It allows you to release difficult situations and, sometimes, difficult people. By detaching from past experiences and future expectations, you can look at your relationships, both personal and professional, more objectively, which gives you greater clarity.

Holding on to an idea just because you have become attached to it creates anxiety. Once you detach from a desired outcome, you can stop worrying about it. The truth is that most attachment is about control, and control is an illusion. So it’s better to get on with your life, even when you don’t get exactly what you want.

When you release your desire for control over the lives of others, it sets everyone free. Those endless hours of frustration can be turned into fruitful days of creativity.

Detaching is not always easy. You must learn that even when things go differently from how you think they should, it’s okay. If you are in pain over a difference of opinion, it helps to understand why you want what you want in the first place. If your motivation is one of selfishness rather than one of balance, you may need to take another look at the situation.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... detachment
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by chewybrian »

...a bit more from the same article that maybe makes it clearer what is meant by psychological detachment:
You do not detach by getting angry or casting blame. Detachment is the absence of prejudice or bias. When a discussion gets heated and you notice yourself trying to take control, it’s best to take a break and do something else for a while. Exercise, play, putter around the house, or just veg-out in front of the tube.

Detachment is not about moving out of the driver’s seat and into the passenger seat. It’s about becoming a better observer of yourself and those around you. Questioning what’s the best thing for everyone concerned can throw a much-needed light on any situation.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Steve3007 »

From the OP:
...I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness...
That idea of a lower and higher self, if regarded as disconnected from each other and somehow mutually exclusive, is not something I set much store by. The moral sense, for example, is intimately connected to "instinctual desires" because those desires, in ourselves and others, are the basis for that moral sense. And such things as the fulfilment we get from being creative or from learning about the structure of the world in which we live are not disconnected from what are sometimes called our "base" desires. They are intimately connected to them and informed by them.

But obviously this idea of the "higher" and "lower" being somehow separate has old and deep roots. It expresses itself in various ways, such as the notion that we can understand the world using pure thought without troubling to actually look at it. Or the idea that abstract concepts like mathematics represent some kind of real but perfect realm, of which the material world is an imperfect reflection. It seems to be a natural by-product of the human capacity for abstract thought.
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