Whose Lives Have Value?

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Belindi
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: October 24th, 2021, 12:04 pm
Belindi wrote: October 24th, 2021, 10:11 am
GEMorton quoted:
Tytler also wrote, "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."
It's important that a democracy educate citizens so that they are aware of this, and can agitate and legislate against it. For this reason leftish governments and electorate are more effective because they spend more public money on quality education for all to tertiary level .
Well, Belindi, the "education" imparted by leftish governments is heavily laced with leftish ideology, the promulgation and perpetuation of which is its main purpose. Hence it is certainly not going to educate the masses in economics, which would enable at least some of them to grasp the problems entailed by those "generous gifts" of which Tytler wrote.

No public school in the US --- that I know of --- teaches K-12 kids economics. It is not a required course in any public university, either. That is an amazing omission, given how many public policy questions resolve to economic questions. It is like trying to teach medical practice to MD students but neglecting to include courses on anatomy and physiology.

As a result, public school kids graduate believing that money is created from thin air by government, which can produce as much as as necessary to supply all the free lunches to which they think they're "entitled" and hence demand.

A serious education would cover basic economics class in middle school and require a more intensive class in the subject in high school.

Do public schools in European countries include economics in their basic curricula?
Teachers are not morally or professionally bound to indoctrinate, they are morally and professionally bound to not indoctrinate.
Steve3007
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Steve3007 »

My eldest son is currently in year 11 (I presume that's equivalent to the US K-11). He's taught economics.
Steve3007
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Steve3007 »

Nick_A wrote:The best secularism can come up with is "Might makes Right."
By the way, Nick, you keep saying this, and it keeps being pointed out to you that it simply is not true. But, as with so much of what you say, you just keep saying it again anyway. There is no body called "secularism" which asserts that might makes right. The only person asserting that is you, in the voice of one of your large collection of straw men. As I've said, when the strong seize power in disregard for the wishes of the people over whom they wield that power, it is generally because they believe themselves to be objectively right. As I've said, history has taught that the world of people believing in the concept of objective right and wrong is not the place you seem to think it would be.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: October 24th, 2021, 10:10 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 24th, 2021, 7:28 pm
Nick_A wrote: October 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 24th, 2021, 4:19 pm The issue is not about foetuses deserving health care, it's about how entities that are vastly less intelligent, aware and loving than a cow can be treated as more valuable than babies, children and adult humans. If you are a keen meat eater, being anti-abortion is a massive double standard.

In terms of raw numbers of deaths, abortion is far less harmful than agitating and voting against universal healthcare and welfare. However, the suffering and loss via deaths of abortions are massively dwarfed by the deaths of older humans neglected for the sake of ideology when it comes to loss of intelligence, awareness and established relationships.
You keep avoiding the question. It is not about "how entities that are vastly less intelligent, aware and loving than a cow can be treated as more valuable than babies, children and adult humans"
It is about who or which lives have value and how is it determined? The best secularism can come up with is "Might makes Right." That being the case the modern scapegoat taught in critical race theory is white people so I'll get my gun ready
My post is very much about whose lives have value and how this is determined. Your reflexively tribal comments about secularism and race are noted, but lack sufficient content to warrant a counter.

You can say it which doesn't mean you have done it. Again who and which lives have value and how is it determined? I know you don't know and neither do the majority which is why the atrocities committed in the world are justified

It would be just as easy to say that the best evangelist Christians have come up with is "We are right" and that the modern scapegoat are "liberals". But no, that would be just countering dumb talk with more dumb talk. I'm rather over dumb talk, given its near-ubiquity in today's public conversations.

I don't know which evangelists you refer but they are missing the point along with the rest.

I note that you are essentially saying that you ought to prepare to kill secularists and liberals. I like to think this is just words, bravado. However, the reckless way many radical right-wing Americans such as yourself speak about life and death suggests that you do not value human lives at all, aside from foetuses and your mates.
Yes, if the Jews were better able to defend themselves maybe they could have avoided being killed. Simone was a young pacifist. She learned it was a futile effort

“If Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

Regardless of how politically incorrect it seems, a person has to defend themselves against indoctrinated Secularists and liberals who have decided your life lacks value
I don't understand.

Which secularists and liberals decided that your life lacks value?
Steve3007
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Steve3007 »

Sy Borg wrote:Which secularists and liberals decided that your life lacks value?
These ones apparently:
Nick_A wrote:Woke people attack white people including Jews and Armenians as the cause of racism. They are justified by critical race theory. We both have long noses which psychologists from Harvard now believe is the cause of racism. We are forced to defend our noses. Jews and Armenians must look straight ahead. If we look down it gives the impression of looking down on people of color so are now free to attack us. If we look up at the sky our noses are turned up. it gives the impression of lack of concern for the unfortunates. The nose including mine is the defining moral attribute. If pointed the wrong way it justifies the attack including the violence of BLM.
Either he's joking or talking highly metaphorically or the guy is off his rocker. And armed. Yikes.
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: October 25th, 2021, 5:31 am
Nick_A wrote: October 24th, 2021, 10:10 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 24th, 2021, 7:28 pm
Nick_A wrote: October 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

You keep avoiding the question. It is not about "how entities that are vastly less intelligent, aware and loving than a cow can be treated as more valuable than babies, children and adult humans"
It is about who or which lives have value and how is it determined? The best secularism can come up with is "Might makes Right." That being the case the modern scapegoat taught in critical race theory is white people so I'll get my gun ready
My post is very much about whose lives have value and how this is determined. Your reflexively tribal comments about secularism and race are noted, but lack sufficient content to warrant a counter.

You can say it which doesn't mean you have done it. Again who and which lives have value and how is it determined? I know you don't know and neither do the majority which is why the atrocities committed in the world are justified

It would be just as easy to say that the best evangelist Christians have come up with is "We are right" and that the modern scapegoat are "liberals". But no, that would be just countering dumb talk with more dumb talk. I'm rather over dumb talk, given its near-ubiquity in today's public conversations.

I don't know which evangelists you refer but they are missing the point along with the rest.

I note that you are essentially saying that you ought to prepare to kill secularists and liberals. I like to think this is just words, bravado. However, the reckless way many radical right-wing Americans such as yourself speak about life and death suggests that you do not value human lives at all, aside from foetuses and your mates.
Yes, if the Jews were better able to defend themselves maybe they could have avoided being killed. Simone was a young pacifist. She learned it was a futile effort

“If Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

Regardless of how politically incorrect it seems, a person has to defend themselves against indoctrinated Secularists and liberals who have decided your life lacks value
I don't understand.

Which secularists and liberals decided that your life lacks value?
Dr. Khilanani is typical of the educated indoctrined into the destruction of the fashionable scapegoat of the day or white people. It is perfectly natural for not knowing the intrinsic value of life
On April 6, 2021 Dr. Aruna Khilanani, addressing Yale School of Medicine Child Study Center via “Common Sense with Bari Weiss” said:

“I had fantasies of unloading a revolver into the head of any white person that got in my way, burying their body and wiping my bloody hands as I walked away relatively guiltless with a bounce in my step. Like I did the world a f***ing favor.

White people are out of their minds and they have been for a long time.

We are asking a demented, violent predator who thinks that they are a saint or a superhero, to accept responsibility. It ain’t gonna happen. They have five holes in their brain.”
― Aruna Khilanani
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Steve3007 wrote: October 25th, 2021, 5:28 am
Nick_A wrote:The best secularism can come up with is "Might makes Right."
By the way, Nick, you keep saying this, and it keeps being pointed out to you that it simply is not true. But, as with so much of what you say, you just keep saying it again anyway. There is no body called "secularism" which asserts that might makes right. The only person asserting that is you, in the voice of one of your large collection of straw men. As I've said, when the strong seize power in disregard for the wishes of the people over whom they wield that power, it is generally because they believe themselves to be objectively right. As I've said, history has taught that the world of people believing in the concept of objective right and wrong is not the place you seem to think it would be.
Objective right and wrong doesn't exist in the world. Man is guided by the duality of subjective opinions. The collective awareness of objective values is a human evolutionary potential. There is the prison of Plato's cave and freedom from Plato's cave. You apparently prefer to support the prison and the battle over opinions. I'm on the side of those supporting freedom from the confines of the Cave.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Steve3007 wrote: October 25th, 2021, 5:28 am
Nick_A wrote:The best secularism can come up with is "Might makes Right."
By the way, Nick, you keep saying this, and it keeps being pointed out to you that it simply is not true. But, as with so much of what you say, you just keep saying it again anyway. There is no body called "secularism" which asserts that might makes right. The only person asserting that is you, in the voice of one of your large collection of straw men. As I've said, when the strong seize power in disregard for the wishes of the people over whom they wield that power, it is generally because they believe themselves to be objectively right. As I've said, history has taught that the world of people believing in the concept of objective right and wrong is not the place you seem to think it would be.
Yes it has been believed right in the past to kill the Jews and Armenians. For others it seemed right to defend them. The issue is decided by the power to kill which is always changing. To protect ones family from the torch carrying mob, it is better to keep a rifle in the house as protection against the educated experts in right and wrong.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

From Wiki
In philosophy, "the Absurd" refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life, and the human inability to find these with any certainty.[1] The universe and the human mind do not each separately cause the Absurd; rather, the Absurd arises by the contradictory nature of the two existing simultaneously.
This thread has proven that most prefer to justify the absurdity of the human condition while some strive to understand it and determine if they must remain prisoners of it. Obviously philosophy and the love of wisdom is dead in modern times so must be driven underground and only open to those who need it rather than destroy it through argument. If collective man cannot remember the intrinsic value of life, nature must take over. I do believe there will be catastrophes and mass killings too horrible to ponder in order to restore the balance of nature. Not a pleasant perspective. When Jesus said while being crucified: "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Truer words were never spoken.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
GE Morton
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by GE Morton »

Nick_A wrote: October 24th, 2021, 11:58 pm
Then you deny noesis or (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles). That is our difference
I don't deny those phenomena as internal mental phenomena --- I have no way of knowing what may or may not go on in your head. What I deny is that those "revelations" reveal anything about the world outside your head, unless they are publicly verifiable.
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by GE Morton »

Steve3007 wrote: October 25th, 2021, 5:17 am My eldest son is currently in year 11 (I presume that's equivalent to the US K-11). He's taught economics.
Then UK schools have a leg up on US public schools. :-)
GE Morton
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: October 25th, 2021, 5:15 am
Teachers are not morally or professionally bound to indoctrinate, they are morally and professionally bound to not indoctrinate.
They don't think that's what they're doing, but they are, and can't avoid it. They teach what they know (or think they know) and believe, which will be what they themselves have been taught in teachers' colleges. A teacher who strays too far into "politically incorrect" territory will be admonished, and perhaps fired.

But that is to confuse deliberate indoctrination with education according to trends in methods and aims .

In the 1970s child education was 'child centred' which meant the child learned at her own pace and her own personal interests. This was not hierarchical teaching and it had its advantages and disadvantages according to the sex and social background of the child. Child centred teaching takes a lot of skill on the part of the teacher. It tended more to favour girls than boys. Classroom teaching is now more teacher and curriculum centred compared with the 1970s .
Teachers now have to be graduates and have studied education as an academic discipline so they know about these trends in education and can evaluate them. There is never an occasion for a teacher to indoctrinate a learner.
Steve3007
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Steve3007 »

GE Morton wrote:Then UK schools have a leg up on US public schools. :-)
Well, it's not actually regarded as a core subject, so he studies it because he wants to. Personally I think a whole load of things that can be regarded as essential to being a citizen should be core subjects that can't be dropped in year 9 (when they decide what they want to study up to year 12). That would include economics and political history. If we're expected to vote at the age of 18 then it seems pretty essential to have at least some idea of what the choices on offer actually stand for.
Steve3007
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Steve3007 »

Nick_A wrote:Dr. Khilanani is typical of the educated indoctrined into the destruction of the fashionable scapegoat of the day or white people. It is perfectly natural for not knowing the intrinsic value of life.
An unusual usage of the word "typical".

This is the now-well-known problem with our internet age. Find some crazy person online and then declare "See? The world's full of people like this! It must be, because I've found one.". Imagine if the day-to-day business of meeting real people in real life was like the filter-feeding we do on the internet. Sifting through billions to find the ones that most trigger us in whatever way we've decided we like to be triggered. Life would be exhausting.
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Steve3007 wrote: October 25th, 2021, 10:33 am
Nick_A wrote:Dr. Khilanani is typical of the educated indoctrined into the destruction of the fashionable scapegoat of the day or white people. It is perfectly natural for not knowing the intrinsic value of life.
An unusual usage of the word "typical".

This is the now-well-known problem with our internet age. Find some crazy person online and then declare "See? The world's full of people like this! It must be, because I've found one.". Imagine if the day-to-day business of meeting real people in real life was like the filter-feeding we do on the internet. Sifting through billions to find the ones that most trigger us in whatever way we've decided we like to be triggered. Life would be exhausting.
We don't know if you are white and have not measured your nose but if you are on the scapegoat list, you are next

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

What is Critical Race Theory?
An outgrowth of the European Marxist school of critical theory, critical race theory is an academic movement which seeks to link racism, race, and power. Unlike the Civil Rights movement, which sought to work within the structures of American democracy, critical race theorists challenge the very foundations of the liberal order, such as rationalism, constitutional law, and legal reasoning. Critical race theorists argue that American social life, political structures, and economic systems are founded upon race, which (in their view) is a social construct.

Systemic racism, in the eyes of critical race theorists, stems from the dominance of race in American life. Critical race theorists and anti-racist advocates argue that, because race is a predominant part of American life, racism itself has become internalized into the American conscience. It is because of this, they argue, that there have been significantly different legal and economic outcomes between different racial groups.

What are the implications of Critical Race Theory?

Advocates of anti-racism and critical race theory use this focus on race to emphasize the importance of identity politics. Movements, such as the wave of “anti-racist” actions at universities and Black Lives Matter, are some ways in which identity politics and critical race theory have captured the nation’s attention. For the political identitarians, simply not being racist is not sufficient. As Boston University professor Ibram X. Kendi writes in his book How to Be an Antiracist, “[Racism] is descriptive, and the only way to undo racism is to consistently identify and describe it—and then dismantle it,” (p. 9).

Self-avowed anti-racists are not only expected to push for equity (i.e. the equality of outcome) in the broader society, but are also asked to find racism in daily life. Robin DiAngelo, author of White Fragility, writes, “The question is not ‘did racism take place?’ but rather, ‘how did racism manifest in this situation?”’ Anti-racists must find these “implicit biases” in all aspects of life, ranging from discussions in the classroom to interactions between colleagues. All of these are fair game.
If it wasn't for your racism and refusal to admit it, peace and love would dominate the world. But you represent what has ruined it so it is the obligation of the academic community to eliminate you in one way or another. You know you cannot argue with the educated since they have degrees proving they are smarter than you. Get on your knees and beg forgiveness. It may work but your racism is hard to forgive. As a long nosed white Aries male I am obligated to resist.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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