The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 6:35 am Arts and sciences are separate means by which men make sense of the world.

Religion is an art, not a science. As art, modern religion still takes much from theatre. Religion and theatre once were the same. Some sects respect that fact and make no bones about music, poetry, costumery, decor, bodily movements, and symbolism, and even smells. I am fully in sympathy with all of those as I have recovered from my more Calvinistic phase.
I think of religion as a discipline that studies emotion, but it is not unreasonable to call it an art. I am not sure that I like comparing it to theatre, as that implies a certain falseness, but there probably is acting involved. My brother recently did some acting in his church. They had some kind of recital around Christmas and wanted him to stand up at the front of the church and smile while holding his hands out like he was welcoming everyone. He is in his seventies, has white hair and beard, and is six and a half feet tall, so he looks the part -- luckily, he did not have to talk. I wish I could have seen it, but probably would have broken out in giggles. It is just too hard to see a brother that way.

All art interprets emotion, that is what it does whether we are talking about the beauty of dance, the comfort or joy of music, or poetry, paintings, sculpture, architecture, etc. To be able to take paint or sound or even rock and work it until it creates emotion in another person requires study. So yes, one could call religion an art.

Congratulations on your Calvinistic recovery. :)

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

JackDaydream wrote: January 19th, 2022, 11:03 am I have never visited Rome but I am extremely interested about the scrolls. A nun told me of their existence and she spoke of people having come out of a meeting with sorrowful faces. Unfortunately, I have never met this nun again. It may be that there is so much of what is written which is not know by many.
I wouldn't get too excited about those scrolls. The Vatican is never going to release them, and I can't blame them for holding the scrolls back. I wouldn't release them either, because people tend to think that if something is written down, it is more valid than something that is not written down. There is no truth in this. You can not assume that the scrolls/information is held back because it would be of great value to you, as it is just as likely that it is being held back because it could be destructive. I told you about the scrolls so that you would understand that what you have been able to read is not necessarily the beginning and the end of knowledge on that subject.

Whoever that nun was, she gave you just enough information to make you curious and suspicious for whatever her reasons. I would have her fired if I were in charge of the matter. She is supposed to be helping people in their faith and belief, not destroying it.
JackDaydream wrote: January 19th, 2022, 11:03 am I have grappled with understanding religious ideas because I was brought up with them. I did religious studies as part of my own university studies, but feel that barely touched upon the subject. I try to read, including some theology and comparative religion, but there is so much. It ranges from the academic to the popular ideas, such as the Grail legend and The Templars. I came across the ideas about Gnosticism mainly through reading the writings of Carl Jung. He has been one of the biggest influencers. I am also extremely interested in esoteric religion, including esoteric Christianity. But, it is sometimes hard to evaluate literature and work out what is accurate and that may be where it is so bound up with political agendas.
You know, you can not learn/know everything. A lot of religion is intertwined with history, so which is it that interests you more, religion or history?

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:05 pm
Gee wrote: January 19th, 2022, 4:57 am I don't know why we take new knowledge and use it like a dagger to attack former ideas, but we do. Maybe we think the attack is necessary in order to kill the old knowledge?
Creation is much more difficult than destruction, so we tend to favour the latter, perhaps just because it's easier? 🤔
I would love to be able to agree with you and just blame it on laziness, but I can't. People have tortured, wounded, and killed other people; they have burned out their homes, destroyed towns and villages, and killed livestock and torched the fields all because the other people would not change their minds. They call it war, but this is the Unholy Trinity.

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by CalebB »

JackDaydream wrote: January 19th, 2022, 11:18 am @CalebB

I am interested by your reply but a little uncertain, from what you have written, whether you are suggesting that it has to be a choice between science or religion. I don't see how it can be all one or the other. Of course, I am aware of atheists who say that the ideas in religion are made up completely. That is not the angle I come from because I understand the religious perspective to be coming from a symbolic level. Also, in the opposite direction, some people take everything in the Bible literally. I guess my angle is about trying to think beyond these extremes for some clarity of thought, which is about reconciliation of science and religious approaches. The part where politics is likely to be in connection to the power and influences in the social structures in which these ideas developed.
.
It doesn't have to be a choice between science and religion. My view is not a black and white one. I meant that, as a philosopher or someone that values science, you can't follow a beliefs system without carefully examining it's teachings. That would mean that you could belong to any religion andit wouldn't matter. The choice would be arbitrary. However, I believe that we should accept religion for what it is, and accept the people in those religions for who they are. Acceptance is key. There is a lot of value in the scriptures of various religions. I plan on reading the Bhagavad Gita some time just for interest.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Belindi »

Gee wrote: January 20th, 2022, 3:14 am
Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 6:35 am Arts and sciences are separate means by which men make sense of the world.

Religion is an art, not a science. As art, modern religion still takes much from theatre. Religion and theatre once were the same. Some sects respect that fact and make no bones about music, poetry, costumery, decor, bodily movements, and symbolism, and even smells. I am fully in sympathy with all of those as I have recovered from my more Calvinistic phase.
I think of religion as a discipline that studies emotion, but it is not unreasonable to call it an art. I am not sure that I like comparing it to theatre, as that implies a certain falseness, but there probably is acting involved. My brother recently did some acting in his church. They had some kind of recital around Christmas and wanted him to stand up at the front of the church and smile while holding his hands out like he was welcoming everyone. He is in his seventies, has white hair and beard, and is six and a half feet tall, so he looks the part -- luckily, he did not have to talk. I wish I could have seen it, but probably would have broken out in giggles. It is just too hard to see a brother that way.

All art interprets emotion, that is what it does whether we are talking about the beauty of dance, the comfort or joy of music, or poetry, paintings, sculpture, architecture, etc. To be able to take paint or sound or even rock and work it until it creates emotion in another person requires study. So yes, one could call religion an art.

Congratulations on your Calvinistic recovery. :)

Gee
Whether you like it or not, historians and anthropologists tell us religion and art were once the same social activity.
Emotionalism is not the same as art, although superficial stories and pictures may be emotional while lacking any resemblance to life as it actually is experienced.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by CalebB »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:15 pm
CalebB wrote: January 19th, 2022, 9:59 am Either the Bible is telling the truth and all of it is valid, or it’s not and shouldn’t be followed blindly.
The Bible - like the Mahabharata, and other sacred texts - offers spiritual truths, not literal ones. Their language, and the language of science, differ markedly, even though they use the same words. Scriptural literalists are ... a special case.
I agree that scriptural literalists are a special case, but the Bible itself does make some literal claims that's hard to ignore if you're a believer.

Examples:
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis1:31
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
"And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” Matthew 28:7
"who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11

If you take these verses literally you may be a scriptural literalist, but those who do not shouldn't claim to believe everything in the Bible. Its okay to be a liberal Christian and use the Bible metaphorically, but you should be true to yourself.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by CalebB »

Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:52 pm CalebB wrote:
I believe that science can explain religion. However, religious proselytes would not accept the explanations of science that contradict their teachings.
Sociology explains religion as a necessary function of human societies.

There are many 'proselytes' of more liberal sects such as the Society of Friends, and the Unitarians, who accept explanations from both social scientists, and historians.
Sure, by science I meant soft science. Mathematics can't be applied here.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Belindi »

CalebB wrote: January 20th, 2022, 6:25 am
Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:52 pm CalebB wrote:
I believe that science can explain religion. However, religious proselytes would not accept the explanations of science that contradict their teachings.
Sociology explains religion as a necessary function of human societies.

There are many 'proselytes' of more liberal sects such as the Society of Friends, and the Unitarians, who accept explanations from both social scientists, and historians.
Sure, by science I meant soft science. Mathematics can't be applied here.
Some religious sects require members to accept all doctrines without question. Other religious sects are liberal not authoritarian.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

Belindi wrote: January 20th, 2022, 5:23 am
Gee wrote: January 20th, 2022, 3:14 am
Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 6:35 am Arts and sciences are separate means by which men make sense of the world.

Religion is an art, not a science. As art, modern religion still takes much from theatre. Religion and theatre once were the same. Some sects respect that fact and make no bones about music, poetry, costumery, decor, bodily movements, and symbolism, and even smells. I am fully in sympathy with all of those as I have recovered from my more Calvinistic phase.
I think of religion as a discipline that studies emotion, but it is not unreasonable to call it an art. I am not sure that I like comparing it to theatre, as that implies a certain falseness, but there probably is acting involved. My brother recently did some acting in his church. They had some kind of recital around Christmas and wanted him to stand up at the front of the church and smile while holding his hands out like he was welcoming everyone. He is in his seventies, has white hair and beard, and is six and a half feet tall, so he looks the part -- luckily, he did not have to talk. I wish I could have seen it, but probably would have broken out in giggles. It is just too hard to see a brother that way.

All art interprets emotion, that is what it does whether we are talking about the beauty of dance, the comfort or joy of music, or poetry, paintings, sculpture, architecture, etc. To be able to take paint or sound or even rock and work it until it creates emotion in another person requires study. So yes, one could call religion an art.

Congratulations on your Calvinistic recovery. :)

Gee
Whether you like it or not, historians and anthropologists tell us religion and art were once the same social activity.
I don'\t know what you are complaining about. I already stated that it is "not unreasonable to call it an art". As far as it being a "social activity", I don't study social activities, but if I did, I doubt that I would accept that historians and anthropologists tell us that religion is nothing but a social activity, nor would I accept that art is nothing but a social activity. That would be such a shallow and superficial explanation that I could not credit that it came from professionals.

You and I are coming at this from two different directions and it is causing miscommunication. You seem to be looking at the social, but I am looking at consciousness and how it works.
Belindi wrote: January 20th, 2022, 5:23 am Emotionalism is not the same as art, although superficial stories and pictures may be emotional while lacking any resemblance to life as it actually is experienced.
Saying that "emotionalism is not the same as art" is much like saying that "consciousness is not the same as thought". Of course it isn't, because if it were, then books would be conscious.

I am not talking about emotionalism; I am not talking about how emotion feels; what I am talking about is how emotion works. Emotion is analogue, not digital, so it does not break down into digital thoughts and language very well. Emotion works through the unconscious, so it is difficult to know, to pin down, to express to another, which is why we use art to express emotion. Art helps us to understand, express, and share emotion -- as does religion.

You initially stated that, "Arts and sciences are separate means by which men make sense of the world." I agree with this, but would explain it differently. Arts and religions interpret analogue emotion (the unconscious), while the sciences and philosophy interpret digital thoughts (the conscious mind), and together help us to understand ourselves and the world.

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@Caleb
I have a copy of the 'Bhagavad Gita" on my bookshelf and plan to read it too. It sounds like you come from a similar perspective of tolerance and open minded thinking. Some people may feel that being open in such a way is too idealistic, but it is my honest approach because I am genuinely trying to weigh up the different aspects of religion and science carefully and it really appears to me that there are no easy answers.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@CalebB

I just saw your post about the passage in the Bible in which Jesus says that no one should come to ' the Father except through me.' I have found some Christians quote that so frequently to argue that all other religions are wrong. For some time, I got a bit stuck with it, but it then occurred to me that it does all depend whether God is even seen as a Father. Some people still believe in God but as being not necessarily of the male gender, and to see God in gender as we know it problematic. Jung refers to the image of God and that is what it comes down to.

It can be asked to what extent human beings were created by God in 'his' image or humans conceive of a God anthromorphically? But, I am aware that many Christians may see my thinking as wrong and atheists may criticise me because I do believe in some higher power behind mind and matter, but have an open acceptance of the search for truth through science alongside all religious and philosophical thinking. But, I am not wishing to preach this because it is all forms of dogmatiism which can be restrictive and, as you say, I it is all about finding truth for oneself and I think that the passage in the Bible about finding the path to God through the Jesus, was not necessarily about saying only Christianity was right but about the higher wisdom of his underlying principles. It may be that here there are common aspects of thought like love and compassion, and not even restricted to religion, because such ideals also exist within humanism.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:07 pm I am hoping that my question is not too vague or big to discuss. At the moment, I am reading 'Science and Religion', by Thomas Dixon, because I do struggle with the relationship between science and religion, but also think that there is a political dimension to this.

The writing of Dixon has lead me to think more about the way in which the political aspects of knowledge come into play. He says, 'Among historians of science and religion there have been two interesting different kinds of attack on the "conflict between by Enlightenment rationalists, Victorian freethinkers and modern-day atheists...Some scientists have been religious, others atheists'. He also speaks of national and historical differences, suggesting, 'The opposition of science versus religion is then seen to be standing proxy for some classic modern political conflicts: the individual versus the state, or secular liberalism versus conservatise traditions'

I hope that this thread discussion will not be a headache for anyone who reads it. Really, I am simply trying to make some interesting debate about the relationship between religion, science and politics. It seems important, especially in terms of what knowledge is transmitted culturally. In particular, certain texts were included or excluded in the Church canon. This occurred in the context of conflict between mainstream Christianity and Gnosticism in the early Christian church. Of course, I am aware that Christianity is not the only religion and I am extremely interested in the diversity of comparative religion.

I have placed this thread in the general philosophy section because it has overlapping branches. I don't really have any set agenda, and I am trying to create lively debate, not a war of ideas. Also, I am extremely interested in the relationship between religion, science and politics, so I will take part in discussion, but I do not wish to dominate and be intrusive, and I am creating this thread on the basis that the relationship between religion, science and politics is at the core of philosophy.
I believe the so called conflict between religion and science is itself political. Science and religion coexist and have done so for ages. There might have been a few bumps on the way and some religions might have been more antagonistic than others but they both have survived and thrive. The Abrahamic religions are not all the same, many have reformed themselves, lean more towards spiritualism rather than dogma, and Christians feel free to change religions that accommodate their views. Eastern religions, such as Hinduism, have no conflict at all with science because its philosophy is more about the individual, observing thoughts and consciousness, and view humans as part of the whole eco system with the rest of the organisms. As you have stated many scientists are also religious and they feel no conflict, because there is no conflict.

Atheists have the most conflicted ideas about religion and science, who see them as mutually exclusive. This sits better with their position on non-belief in a creator god. But the idea of a creator god itself is losing ground and it definitely is not a factor for non-Abrhamic religions. But many atheists arguments center on the creator god/Santa Claus idea of a god that visits rewards and punishment. This is not how Eastern religions see god, it is more about personal actions, motives and intentions, and consequence. A good question would be why do Atheist hang on to this idea of a punishing/rewarding god. What is the politics here?
Finally religion and politics when combined create the most havoc. Because religion is a convenient way to divide people, and when you can divide them you can also plant suspicion, fear and hatred. conflict.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

JackDaydream wrote: January 19th, 2022, 11:03 am
I have grappled with understanding religious ideas because I was brought up with them. I did religious studies as part of my own university studies, but feel that barely touched upon the subject. I try to read, including some theology and comparative religion, but there is so much. It ranges from the academic to the popular ideas, such as the Grail legend and The Templars. I came across the ideas about Gnosticism mainly through reading the writings of Carl Jung. He has been one of the biggest influencers. I am also extremely interested in esoteric religion, including esoteric Christianity. But, it is sometimes hard to evaluate literature and work out what is accurate and that may be where it is so bound up with political agendas.
I am studying Advaita, a school of of Vedanta or Indian Philosophy, and the more I understand it the more I feel at its core all religions say the same thing - that divinity is within you, not external. Because of my interest in the study of Consciousness per Advaita, Non dualism, I have also been exploring and finding the the idea in other religions and all of them have a strain of this concept within them such as Gnosis in Christianity, and Sufi in Islam, Kabala in Judaism.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by CalebB »

I also see a common thread in all the religions. Most religions have the idea that there is a higher existence that one moves into once one has evolved spiritually or transcended this life. They value and promote positive emotions such as compassion, joy, and gratitude. There are rules to guide people to live a better lifestyle and protect society. I’ve recently got into studying the archetypes that Carl Jung explains, because I started writing a novel. I learned that successful novels follow a structure known as the hero’s journey, and it’s based on the Self or unconscious archetypes of the human soul. We all go through the phases of a hero’s journey through our lives. I found this very fascinating.

I get where you’re coming from by attempting to connect the symbolism if religions. There are common symbols and ideas in religion, like the archetypes of the hero’s journey. From that perspective I see that to study religion is not a superficial endeavor at all.
In my opinion, to study the esoteric origins of religion is more in the area of Spirituality and mysticism. Pythagoras taught that there was an inner, mystical teaching from which he formulated the principles of music and mathematics. He also taught that there was an outer, exoteric form of teaching meant for the practical instruction of the common people.
I think that this topic is more directed towards the mystical development of religions.
@AmericanKestrel touched on Gnosticism, Sufism, and the Kabala. When we start thinking in this direction the religions will appear for connected than separate.
You mentioned that fact that the Bible views God as male. I agree that this is problematic. Women have been oppressed and subjugated for millennia, so it makes sense that this mindset would be incorporated into some religions. It doesn’t fit in with the concept of polarity, yin yang, and the way nature works. I think God is both male and female, and the universe employs both the male and female energies in creation.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 5:24 pm @stevie

Yes, it may be that the reason why you find my thinking a little difficult or strange because it does involve a fair amount of autobiographical reflection. Part of the reason why I probably think in that style is because I did some psychotherapy training. So , it may mean that the way I think and write is a bit different from the way people often write in philosophy. I have come across one philosopher, Bryan Magee, who writes philosophy in an autobiographical way. But, I guess that many on this site may find my approach a bit different from what they expect on a forum.
In some sense one's approach to philosophy is necessarily 'kind of' "autobiographical": one's way of cognizing and therefore one's way of expressing thoughts is the momentary product of one's "learning history" (in terms of 'behaviour sience'). But to explicitly think about one's past in the context of philosophy actually is applying one's momentary cognition in the context of memory and thus beyond the mere objective data referring to the past there isn't anything objectively reliable in autobiographical thinking.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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