How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

Post by JackDaydream »

Stonebear wrote: June 25th, 2022, 9:53 am Thank you for your reply. One thing I did not add as I am new to this form and not sure of the parameters of this topic. I in all honesty do not believe that there is such a thing as truth, there is only what one ascribes the title truth to and how another perceives it. This is an excellent topic.
Do you think that the idea of 'truth' is relative completely. There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address. Beyond basic facts there may be only concepts which are used to build frameworks of truth. But, there are probably some consistencies and consensus agreements. With regard to morality, most people would argue that murder and rape are wrong. There are many gray areas of moral thinking though, as well as so many different approaches to ideas and life. Even if facts are like skeletons, the flesh on them is padded out so differently depending on values, interpretation and meanings.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 6:24 pm There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address.
Yes, this is, er, true. But these are the truths that are both obvious and trivial (in the context of this topic). Their 'truth' is clear, and not really subject to challenge or debate. It's the more ... abstract 'truths' that are the difficult ones to deal with, and it is they that give rise to topics and discussions like this one, yes?
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2022, 5:57 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 6:24 pm There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address.
Yes, this is, er, true. But these are the truths that are both obvious and trivial (in the context of this topic). Their 'truth' is clear, and not really subject to challenge or debate. It's the more ... abstract 'truths' that are the difficult ones to deal with, and it is they that give rise to topics and discussions like this one, yes?
I agree that the examples I gave are relatively trivial and I gave them because except in very unusual circumstances they would not be questioned. However, so many specific facts, especially in the cumulative way, are often open to question. For example, when one is putting together a crime investigation or an aspect of history. Witness accounts may vary on account of differing testimonials giving conflicting details. So, on one hand, there may be clear facts, but some facts are hard to distinguish from fiction sometimes.

With abstract truths, it is harder. Some people settle for the evidence of the senses, as a form of realism, trying avoid the abstract. Some argue for universals and rational logic, but all this depends on concepts. Kant argued that there were innate ideas. I wonder if there is some 'truth' to this because even though human beings develop in social groups ideas themselves, such as the concept of truth, time, space,happiness seem to be understood by most people in all cultures.

It is connected to the empirical but it does seem that the understanding of concepts is grasped by some innate intuitive understanding. Of course, some other concepts like the idea of 'God' or 'the mind' are so complicated abstractly, meaning that they lead to never ending threads trying to unravel their existence and logic.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 6:24 pm There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2022, 5:57 am Yes, this is, er, true. But these are the truths that are both obvious and trivial (in the context of this topic). Their 'truth' is clear, and not really subject to challenge or debate. It's the more ... abstract 'truths' that are the difficult ones to deal with, and it is they that give rise to topics and discussions like this one, yes?
JackDaydream wrote: June 27th, 2022, 7:04 am I agree that the examples I gave are relatively trivial and I gave them because except in very unusual circumstances they would not be questioned.
Yes, although they are valid examples of what you're talking about, they are, as you say, not good examples. They would not normally be questioned, which is reasonable considering their obviousness. But using them to illustrate your topic might demean or devalue that which you are trying to illuminate, maybe making it look trivial, even though it isn't. After all, if the examples are trivial, so surely is the rest of it? This is a worthwhile topic; it would be a shame to portray it in a lesser light than it deserves, I think, and this is the only reason why I commented. 👍🙂
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 6:24 pm There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2022, 5:57 am Yes, this is, er, true. But these are the truths that are both obvious and trivial (in the context of this topic). Their 'truth' is clear, and not really subject to challenge or debate. It's the more ... abstract 'truths' that are the difficult ones to deal with, and it is they that give rise to topics and discussions like this one, yes?
JackDaydream wrote: June 27th, 2022, 7:04 am I agree that the examples I gave are relatively trivial and I gave them because except in very unusual circumstances they would not be questioned.
Yes, although they are valid examples of what you're talking about, they are, as you say, not good examples. They would not normally be questioned, which is reasonable considering their obviousness. But using them to illustrate your topic might demean or devalue that which you are trying to illuminate, maybe making it look trivial, even though it isn't. After all, if the examples are trivial, so surely is the rest of it? This is a worthwhile topic; it would be a shame to portray it in a lesser light than it deserves, I think, and this is the only reason why I commented. 👍🙂
I am glad that your intention was that you wished to highlight the one aspect, so as not to let the trivial get in the way. I am also glad that you see the topic as worthwhile because at times I feel that the nature of truth understood critically on this forum(and TPF) almost gets lost when some discussions seem to take one point, and go over it repeatedly and the discussion often loses depth in the process. I see the quest for truth, in its many faces, as one of the main goals of philosophy. Threads come and go, but the recurrent questions of philosophy may be a lifetime's exploration.
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The Beast
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 6:24 pm
Stonebear wrote: June 25th, 2022, 9:53 am Thank you for your reply. One thing I did not add as I am new to this form and not sure of the parameters of this topic. I in all honesty do not believe that there is such a thing as truth, there is only what one ascribes the title truth to and how another perceives it. This is an excellent topic.
Do you think that the idea of 'truth' is relative completely. There are some truths which are more factual than others, like the date one was born or one's address. Beyond basic facts there may be only concepts which are used to build frameworks of truth. But, there are probably some consistencies and consensus agreements. With regard to morality, most people would argue that murder and rape are wrong. There are many gray areas of moral thinking though, as well as so many different approaches to ideas and life. Even if facts are like skeletons, the flesh on them is padded out so differently depending on values, interpretation and meanings.
Accepting the truth may be part of a method that includes discovering the truth and stablishing relevancy. The relevancy is most interesting to me. For example: Take the assertion that the Neanderthal existed. Few would not accept that.
Neanderthal mixed with modern humans. A few of the previous acceptance would not agree with that.
DNA Neanderthal traits are in the human genome. Few would say there is no way and no how.
Neanderthal just like modern humans had geographical identities and possibly DNA differences.
Neanderthal is an archaic human before a quantifiable mutation.
Many modern humans have more mutations than others.
Is a Neanderthal a different species? What is interbreeding?
Modern humans are related to monkeys.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream wrote: June 27th, 2022, 7:42 am I see the quest for truth, in its many faces, as one of the main goals of philosophy.
And I, although I appreciate and agree with your sentiment, see the quest for truth as one of the most problematic distractions that philosophers face. Certainty - of the absolute and Objective kind - is another such problematic concept. Truth seems simple until we look closely at it, and then we realise it's not simple at all. The more I look into it, the more I see the whole issue as a waster of time that could be spent more usefully.

But, as I mentioned, 'truth' is very far from the only distraction we face, and this topic is trying hard to do something worthwhile with a ... difficult subject. 👍
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2022, 11:19 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 27th, 2022, 7:42 am I see the quest for truth, in its many faces, as one of the main goals of philosophy.
And I, although I appreciate and agree with your sentiment, see the quest for truth as one of the most problematic distractions that philosophers face. Certainty - of the absolute and Objective kind - is another such problematic concept. Truth seems simple until we look closely at it, and then we realise it's not simple at all. The more I look into it, the more I see the whole issue as a waster of time that could be spent more usefully.

But, as I mentioned, 'truth' is very far from the only distraction we face, and this topic is trying hard to do something worthwhile with a ... difficult subject. 👍
I used to believe that there was probably a particular way of seeing reality, which was above all others. I used to go to various churches and organisations trying to find it. Nowadays, I don't do that and I am not at all sure of a particular truth at all. However, I do still wonder about the various viewpoints of thinkers, wondering about their validity and where they stand in connection with the concept of truth, even though I realise they it is hard to pin it down in any clear way.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Truth shows when it lets go of itself. She is behind a layer layering itself. Half seen for a moment or two. It will always live in the murky backstage. And it will show and say and manifest. But ultimately she is a woman who will always shy away, and always unravel the most when she is alone. She is not aletheia because she defies lethe, but because she only lives in it.
Atla
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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JackDaydream wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:15 am I used to believe that there was probably a particular way of seeing reality, which was above all others. I used to go to various churches and organisations trying to find it. Nowadays, I don't do that and I am not at all sure of a particular truth at all. However, I do still wonder about the various viewpoints of thinkers, wondering about their validity and where they stand in connection with the concept of truth, even though I realise they it is hard to pin it down in any clear way.
There is one such way, going for maximum relative certainty using Occam's razor.

Most people don't seem to use this, and I have absolutely no idea why they are doing philosophy then. Without it, there are like an infinite amount of equally good explanations for anything.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Atla wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am There is one such way, going for maximum relative certainty using Occam's razor.
Hmm. I think "relative certainty" is like being a bit pregnant. Maximising it further muddies the waters.

Certainty, you see, is a sort of absolute thing, where "absolute" is an antonym for "relative". And you won't discover certainty using Occam's Razor, a rule of thumb we employ when we have nothing better. "Rule of thumb" is a phrase we use to describe a means of guessing that we hope has worked for us better than 50% of the time, in the past. In other words, we hope our guesswork is educated guesswork.

I wish you the bright-scarlet blueness of philosophical needlework! 👍


Atla wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am Most people don't seem to use this, and I have absolutely no idea why they are doing philosophy then. Without it, there are like an infinite amount of equally good explanations for anything.
But, but, but ... there are an infinite amount of equally good explanations for anything, or at least for many things.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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The learning of methods and procedures to arrive at conclusions of what is called objectivity correlates with the omnipresence of truth as it filters into the personal space. It is a subjective spectrum of truth with the objective truth as the center piece. However. At best, “you can only know the half of it” the other half being subjective.
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:37 am Hmm. I think "relative certainty" is like being a bit pregnant. Maximising it further muddies the waters.

Certainty, you see, is a sort of absolute thing, where "absolute" is an antonym for "relative". And you won't discover certainty using Occam's Razor, a rule of thumb we employ when we have nothing better. "Rule of thumb" is a phrase we use to describe a means of guessing that we hope has worked for us better than 50% of the time, in the past. In other words, we hope our guesswork is educated guesswork.

I wish you the bright-scarlet blueness of philosophical needlework!
Absolute certainty is absolute, there's no such thing for humans. All we can work with, and all we have ever worked with throughout history, is relative certainty, ie. best guesses, obviously.
But, but, but ... there are an infinite amount of equally good explanations for anything, or at least for many things.
??
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

Post by JackDaydream »

Atla wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:15 am I used to believe that there was probably a particular way of seeing reality, which was above all others. I used to go to various churches and organisations trying to find it. Nowadays, I don't do that and I am not at all sure of a particular truth at all. However, I do still wonder about the various viewpoints of thinkers, wondering about their validity and where they stand in connection with the concept of truth, even though I realise they it is hard to pin it down in any clear way.
There is one such way, going for maximum relative certainty using Occam's razor.

Most people don't seem to use this, and I have absolutely no idea why they are doing philosophy then. Without it, there are like an infinite amount of equally good explanations for anything.
It is true that Occam's Razor is one important approach because getting irrelevant information out of the way is part of the process However, this process may in itself be complex because one person may see the essentials differently, as there is not always consensus about relative importance or of interpretations.
Atla
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Re: How Can 'Truth' Be Established?

Post by Atla »

JackDaydream wrote: June 28th, 2022, 9:19 am It is true that Occam's Razor is one important approach because getting irrelevant information out of the way is part of the process However, this process may in itself be complex because one person may see the essentials differently, as there is not always consensus about relative importance or of interpretations.
So we use Occam's razor on the relative importance of interpretations too, but there will of course always be disagreements, sometimes major ones. Probably still the best approach overall.
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