I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

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Don Schneider
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Don Schneider »

Alias wrote:It's perfectly simple:
The notion of anything less perfectly simple than ON/OFF, Yes/No, M/F makes certain tiny brains implode with cognitive dissonance.
Therefore, to ease their psychic pain, everybody has to be fixed into one of those positions, securely and permanently.
In your case, this should be a moot point.
Belindi
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Alias wrote:It's perfectly simple:
The notion of anything less perfectly simple than ON/OFF, Yes/No, M/F makes certain tiny brains implode with cognitive dissonance.
Therefore, to ease their psychic pain, everybody has to be fixed into one of those positions, securely and permanently.
Maybe a diagram would be easier to understand than language.

-- Updated August 14th, 2017, 1:38 pm to add the following --
Alias wrote:It's perfectly simple:
The notion of anything less perfectly simple than ON/OFF, Yes/No, M/F makes certain tiny brains implode with cognitive dissonance.
Therefore, to ease their psychic pain, everybody has to be fixed into one of those positions, securely and permanently.
Maybe a diagram would be easier to understand than language.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Alias »

Maybe a diagram would be easier to understand than language.
I thought this was an R rated website?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sy Borg
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Sy Borg »

Alias wrote:It's perfectly simple:
The notion of anything less perfectly simple than ON/OFF, Yes/No, M/F makes certain tiny brains implode with cognitive dissonance.
Therefore, to ease their psychic pain, everybody has to be fixed into one of those positions, securely and permanently.
This trend may well continue too. What I am seeing is that individual freedom and flexibility is increasingly being pathologised. Not so long ago eccentrics were loved and respected, now they are diagnosed. Once people were introverts, now they suffer from "social anxiety" (as if being joined at the hip to idiot post-apes 24/7 is the only sane option?). Once people enjoyed their privacy, now we are increasingly expected to be open books. It seems only a matter of time before eugenics is practised to eliminate all manner of traits deemed to be undesirable. There will probably also be means of manipulating epigenetics to pre-empt eugenics, or at least change the way it is conducted.

The ultimate result of this homogenisation and control is a transference of capacity. So an increasingly restricted, controlled and normalised populace is one that becomes progressively infantilised through lack of experience. As a result, characteristics that were once the domain of individuals such as morality, creativity and judgement capacities will increasingly be bled out from the individual domain and be increasingly largely only be found in collective policies.

The idea of "dumb terminals" comes to mind.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Alias »

Every unit must be a plug-in.
But what are we all to get plugged into, when the whole machine is breaking down?

Some years back, when my elderly mother was having anxiety attacks, I would sit up with her, watching television. She was partial TLC. Some okay cooking and gardening shows. Lots of home renovations - turning peculiar, ramshackle houses, as well as awful dumps, and perfectly normal family homes, into standard saleable units, all with the same granite counter-top and brushed steel appliances.
There was also a program called "What Not to Wear", in which a pair of utterly forgettable young nincompoops who knew absolutely and confidently everything about fashion, took one lucky victim of her friends' good intentions and gave her a $5000 makeover. Weird, interesting, eccentric, funny, individual women were turned, one after another, into a sleek, uniform assembly-line product of mass marketing.
It was profoundly depressing.

-- Updated August 14th, 2017, 9:10 pm to add the following --

I often wondered how many candidates, when offered this boon, said "Are you nuts?! Do you know how many homeless people could be fed that money?"
I liked to imagine the women who declined to be on the program and are still at large, happily sporting leopard-print leotards, fringed vests and big hair.

-- Updated August 14th, 2017, 9:11 pm to add the following --

^ for
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Spectrum
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

[b]Belindi[/b] wrote:Over all, my contention is fuelled by my prejudice in favour of freedom of the individual. In my opinion, the individual should be served by society whenever possible, not that individuals should adapt however kindly to society.
That is a bad prejudice.
I understand at present the individual is seeming separate and it is being imposed by society via laws and peer pressure. This is due to a mess within society without proper morality.

Philosophically, the individual is part and parcel of society.
In a way the individual is the 'society' in the moral sense.

Here is a simple example to get to the point;
Say you are in a team of 10 with a specific mission.
In this case, do you want the team of serve you based on your freedom to demand your preferences? This is very selfish and immoral.
As a team member you should understand the team's mission and align with it to ensure the mission is achieved.
As such, some self-sacrifice and comprises by each individual need to be made so that the mission of the team can be achieved optimally.

In good moral sense, what we have is Team Humanity and the individual[s] are the team members of Team Humanity.
It is very selfish to expect Team Humanity to serve you as an individual based purely on the principles of freedom.

Thus in the sense of good morality, transgenders of all shades should take note the Principles of Team Humanity and align with the mission of Team Humanity instead of demanding in a selfish manner their wants.
To this what I had proposed [in the future not now] is the optimal approach is to deal with the neural algorithms of the transgenders in a win win solution for all.
In particular I believe that individuals are too much persuaded by society that physiological sex (brain-mind plus body proper)must accord with society's preconceived norms. This bossiness of society over individuals can be seen in various (body) dysmorphias among children and also among adults. Not only body dysmorphias but also lack of self esteem follows upon gender stereotyping by society, even among so-called normals.
Note my point re Team Humanity why each individual as a member must do what is optimal towards the mission of Team Humanity in the future.
I understand your views are based on what is happening in society at present but the solution should be holistic and not based on the individual's subjective wants.
I believe also that the persistence of popular trust in traditional "family values" as the basis of morality, is contrary to facts about efficacy of minorities as efficient and moral members of society. The belief in "family values" stereotypes is moreover bad for not only the minority individuals but also for all the people, i.e. all of the society, who are held back from moral and practical efficacy by outdated stereotypes.
At present there are opposing forces from the minorities and majority. Because the solutions from any side are not holistic and optimal, one side will forever never be happy.
What I had proposed are holistic measures that is optimal for Team Humanity, not for the sake on individuals or the majority's selfish demands.

At present the opposing forces are the minority transgenders on one side and the majority of anti-transgenders [mostly religious believers] on the other side. The immutable holy texts of the Abrahamic God will never accept the existence of a man-woman or woman-man of whatever degrees of the mixture.
N.B. I invariably assume that nature (physiological sex) and nurture (gender stereotyping) have separate causes.
The Physiological sex duality has evolved from billions of years. This duality has a small percentile of variation, e.g. various degrees of heamoprodites. What do you think there are other causes?

Gender identity of humans is also based and inherited from billions of years of evolution. Those with physical females features are to bear children, suckle them and take care of them from birth till a certain age. This task of the female is accompanied by a set of related tasks. Therefore there are inherent core responsibilities in relation to the gender identity [nature] as inherited from billions of years of evolution.

The elements of nurture, circumstances, environment, conditions, social, cultural, will made variations to the inherent core gender identity of the specific gender [biological males and females]. For example in some [rare] societies, the woman play the role as 'man of the family' and all sorts of variations from the core norms of gender identity.

The deviations in the inherent core gender identity can also be influenced by internal neural and chemical changes. For example some physical females may be born where their testosterone levels are high, thus are more aggressive and bossy than the majority of females.

The above deviations are the minority due to various factors [not inherited from billions of years ago] but they are merely role or power play and thus not a big issue.
The issue is when a physical gender [e.g. man] is connected with the wrong or mismatched inherent evolved core gender identity [female] - a trans-woman, or vice-versa.

-- Updated Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:12 pm to add the following --
Alias wrote:It's perfectly simple:
The notion of anything less perfectly simple than ON/OFF, Yes/No, M/F makes certain tiny brains implode with cognitive dissonance.
Therefore, to ease their psychic pain, everybody has to be fixed into one of those positions, securely and permanently.
The cognitive dissonance arise when the contrast is obvious.
In the future if we can ensure every one fit into the expected position, why not. In practice it will not be perfect and there will still be some unnoticeable variations.

Humanity should not stop on the above but in the future humanity should move on to resolve the in-group versus out-group [us versus them] impulses.
Greta wrote:As a result, characteristics that were once the domain of individuals such as morality, creativity and judgement capacities will increasingly be bled out from the individual domain and be increasingly largely only be found in collective policies.
The idea of "dumb terminals" comes to mind.
Note my point re Team Humanity and the individual[s] as team members.

When an individual is a team member of Team Humanity, what is team policies is deemed to be the individual's own policies as well.
In the future when the various quotients, IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc. are increased tremendously all the team members are likely to spontaneously share the same moral standards that are optimal to the team in a win-win mode. There will be no collective forcing any individual to conform.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Sy Borg
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Sy Borg »

Spectrum wrote:
Greta wrote:As a result, characteristics that were once the domain of individuals such as morality, creativity and judgement capacities will increasingly be bled out from the individual domain and be increasingly largely only be found in collective policies.
The idea of "dumb terminals" comes to mind.
Note my point re Team Humanity and the individual[s] as team members.

When an individual is a team member of Team Humanity, what is team policies is deemed to be the individual's own policies as well.
In the future when the various quotients, IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc. are increased tremendously all the team members are likely to spontaneously share the same moral standards that are optimal to the team in a win-win mode. There will be no collective forcing any individual to conform.
I suppose it's not easy for those who are ostracised and reviled to join Team Humanity.

Beware of mechanistic thinking here, though. Society may well benefit from greater homogeneity amongst certain parts of a population, but large societies require structure and specialisation - localised "tribes" of homogeneity rather than global homogeneity (a dynamic more suited to microbes than intelligent life). I see no benefit from pushing for homogeneity in the region of what I'd call "the very personal". At some point a person should have the right to be their own person, not to be an controlled "unit". Otherwise, they might as well not be a person, just a unit to be replaced by more efficient AI, which lacks any "troublesome" personal dimension.

Bottom line, I'm talking about babies and bathwater - the usefulness of humanity's flaws.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Greta wrote:I suppose it's not easy for those who are ostracised and reviled to join Team Humanity.

Beware of mechanistic thinking here, though. Society may well benefit from greater homogeneity amongst certain parts of a population, but large societies require structure and specialisation - localised "tribes" of homogeneity rather than global homogeneity (a dynamic more suited to microbes than intelligent life). I see no benefit from pushing for homogeneity in the region of what I'd call "the very personal". At some point a person should have the right to be their own person, not to be an controlled "unit". Otherwise, they might as well not be a person, just a unit to be replaced by more efficient AI, which lacks any "troublesome" personal dimension.

Bottom line, I'm talking about babies and bathwater - the usefulness of humanity's flaws.
Btw, my proposals is not to pick people [transgender in this case] from the street and send them to special centers to be modified.

As I had highlighted we have a problem with transgenders and those hardcore anti-transgenders. As such this problem must be resolved.

In the future when we have the knowledge and technology it will be as simple at a tooth filling or prevention of tooth decay and I had always emphasized the methods are fool proof and voluntary.

There will still be diversity [including warts and flaws] in areas that are not problematic as diversity is evidently essential for survival and preservation of the species.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
In the future when the various quotients, IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc. are increased tremendously all the team members are likely to spontaneously share the same moral standards that are optimal to the team in a win-win mode. There will be no collective forcing any individual to conform.
But conformity is not in itself a moral standard that we want is it? Some people think that transgender people threaten them, or threaten the moral consensus.

Leaving aside the obvious ; that environmental degradation and nuclear war are worse threats than transgender people , what kind and degree of threat do you believe transgender people to be?

Leaving aside Greta's and Alias's belief, which I share, that eccentricity is good for every human society: what sorts of eccentricity can possibly be bad for "IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc." ?

Spectrum, your criterion for bad eccentricities is that nearly all humans are sexually identifiable as male or female. I agree.
However you still confuse gender roles with physiological sex. It is true that biological females are burdened with pregnancy, birthing, and nursing besides generally smaller muscle masses. However now that females can compensate for those in order to be present in the world of work and power they don't have to be subordinate to men were it not for redundant beliefs about females. Some people feel subordinate and attach that feeling to their physiology and / or sexual orientation . Popular prejudice against transgender people supports that belief. I am saying that female physiology or sexual orientation are no longer any bar to personal progress and personal happiness. I am also saying that moral consensus has nothing to do with physiology or sexual orientation. It is therefore bad and wrong that anyone seek surgical or chemical alteration in their bodies or sexual orientation for redundant reasons.

Therefore transgender people don't threaten or weaken the moral consensus. It follows that society would not benefit from the elimination of people whose sexuality is different. Also, eccentric people benefit "IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom etc." at least as much as normals, and probably more.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum wrote:
In the future when the various quotients, IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc. are increased tremendously all the team members are likely to spontaneously share the same moral standards that are optimal to the team in a win-win mode. There will be no collective forcing any individual to conform.
But conformity is not in itself a moral standard that we want is it? Some people think that transgender people threaten them, or threaten the moral consensus.

Leaving aside the obvious ; that environmental degradation and nuclear war are worse threats than transgender people , what kind and degree of threat do you believe transgender people to be?

Leaving aside Greta's and Alias's belief, which I share, that eccentricity is good for every human society: what sorts of eccentricity can possibly be bad for "IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom, etc." ?

Spectrum, your criterion for bad eccentricities is that nearly all humans are sexually identifiable as male or female. I agree.
However you still confuse gender roles with physiological sex. It is true that biological females are burdened with pregnancy, birthing, and nursing besides generally smaller muscle masses. However now that females can compensate for those in order to be present in the world of work and power they don't have to be subordinate to men were it not for redundant beliefs about females. Some people feel subordinate and attach that feeling to their physiology and / or sexual orientation . Popular prejudice against transgender people supports that belief. I am saying that female physiology or sexual orientation are no longer any bar to personal progress and personal happiness. I am also saying that moral consensus has nothing to do with physiology or sexual orientation. It is therefore bad and wrong that anyone seek surgical or chemical alteration in their bodies or sexual orientation for redundant reasons.

Therefore transgender people don't threaten or weaken the moral consensus. It follows that society would not benefit from the elimination of people whose sexuality is different. Also, eccentric people benefit "IQ, EQ, Moral Quotient, Wisdom etc." at least as much as normals, and probably more.
You still did not get my point.
I am not bothered by diversity as long as there are no issues to humanity.

The OP raised a point there is problem of threat re the transgenders. I suggest you orient your views to the OP.
In fact there is problem and transgenders are perceived as a threat by a critical some who are anti-transgenders especially from the religious (the Abrahamic) based on their God's command which is immutable and they cannot go against God else they will go to hell.

Transgenders [grouped with other LBGT] are an obvious threat to the Abrahamic beliefs and the extreme is some are thrown off building alive plus they are subject all sort of oppression and sufferings.

Even if I accept all your arguments the point is the existing problems from the anti-transgender people are not going away.
SOME evil prone Muslims and others will continue to torture, oppress and kill the transgenders [throwing them off tall buildings] since they are perceived as a threat.
If you insist nothing is done then you are complicit to the terror, suffering and deaths of transgenders.

Me on the other hand empathize with the transgenders and had made proposals to present win-win solutions [in the future] at least until we can deal with the anti-transgender people.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Sound Bite
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Sound Bite »

I'm pushing the pen here, however yet haven't completely read the entire thread -- as absorbing as it is. But this train of thought has been on my mind from the start though hasn't yet been addressed:

Firstly, I'll admit that I find transgenders fascinating, exotic, attractive human creatures; I've seen them up close but was seemingly thrust at a distance by them themselves. I understand the personal space they require -- which is tight.

Anyway, I got to thinking -- as a homosexual myself -- I'd feel repelled and disgusted at making love to a biological female-cum-male.

Why, I asked myself?

Because of an archetypal persistence perhaps -- like left-behind germs. Or an ungovernable element -- an essence -- derived from a greater power than we from the start: like a contract, a sentence, a condemnation.

So what, I thought?

Well duh, I responded, don't we celebrate the masculine spirit at its very core? And the masculine physic as an expression of that very core? And having to so much as to touch the opposite extract... in the vanity of spirit of a Greek cult.

No thanks.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Alias »

Sound Bite wrote: No thanks.
That is the correct response if you are propositioned by anyone, of any sex or gender, whom you do not find attractive.
You are not required to give a reason.

-- Updated August 15th, 2017, 7:41 am to add the following --

A lot of people I find unattractive are are allowed to be in the world; are tolerated, accepted and even celebrated.
But, with effective enough eugenics in the future, all humankind may eventually be reduced to a Grecian urn.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote to me:
If you insist nothing is done then you are complicit to the terror, suffering and deaths of transgenders.
I did not say nothing need be done. That is why I am contending with your preferred way of doing something about gender inequality. Theocracies and dictatorships tend towards cruelty towards eccentric people. But this is not evidence that our democracies should aspire to people without individuality. Rather the opposite .Democracy arose from individualism and democracy fostered individualism. True, populism is bad for the success of democratic rule, but what else would you have?
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Sy Borg »

Spectrum wrote:As I had highlighted we have a problem with transgenders and those hardcore anti-transgenders. As such this problem must be resolved.
We also have similar problems with blacks, gays, lesbians and Asians that must be resolved. However, there are no signs that prejudice will ever be resolved.
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Re: I don't understand the perceived threat of transgender

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:Spectrum wrote to me:
If you insist nothing is done then you are complicit to the terror, suffering and deaths of transgenders.
I did not say nothing need be done. That is why I am contending with your preferred way of doing something about gender inequality. Theocracies and dictatorships tend towards cruelty towards eccentric people. But this is not evidence that our democracies should aspire to people without individuality. Rather the opposite .Democracy arose from individualism and democracy fostered individualism. True, populism is bad for the success of democratic rule, but what else would you have?
If you agree something need to be done [in the future], then the optimal strategy is to deal with the transgenders not the majority's anti-transgender views.

Point is given the circumstances, constraints, conditions and limits, what I proposed for the future is the optimal solutions until the critical conditions change. In this case [in the future] it is optimal to change the minority individual[s] rather than the inherent psychology of the majority especially the hardcore anti-transgenders. Do you think it is easiry and you can get rid or religions [theistic - Abrahamic] soon?? or retune the brain of the non-religious anti-transgenders.

The problems of transgender is a wrong connection of the physical with basic gender. Thus this is more like birth defect that has significant psychological consequences to the individual and society. [the naturally born anti-transgender]. It is because of these potential negative consequences that it is optimal to prevent and correct such a birth defect.

I believe strongly in diversity, e.g. height, skin color, different competences, skills, interests, etc. etc. These are not significant birth defects. There are people who are born with abnormal faces, other physical abnormalities, etc. would you insist they remain the same if there are means of plastic surgery or face transplant are available.

I also believe the psychological consequences is greater with birth defects that affect the mental and psychological well being of the person, e.g. a transgender person.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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