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Social anxiety

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Chili
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Chili » November 15th, 2017, 7:08 pm

In democracy, the power to elect the leader is theoretically not concentrated, and the leader is representing the statistic preference of the group.

Tomorrow someone else is the leader. So who is the leader?

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 7:16 pm

Whomever is the best manifestation of the group's unconscious. The person that exemplies the group's essence in their behavior.

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 7:18 pm to add the following --

I believe they will be the leader in the situation you presented.

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 7:43 pm to add the following --

So you're saying there can be no group without a leader?

Georgeanna
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Georgeanna » November 15th, 2017, 8:16 pm

There are different aspects to conscience. I disagree with your interpretation, preferring to say that conscience is knowledge of self, awareness of moral principles that might form the basis of my actions in any given situation.

Social anxiety is an emotion, which can be defined as nervousness in a social situation.

They are not one and the same thing.

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Greta
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Greta » November 15th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:Greta
Do you feel that what you perceive as becoming "tired" could be assimilation into the group, hence no longer feeling so restricted in responses.
Possibly the opposite. It's the inability to maintain satisfactory connections over a period, perhaps due to the effort of editing myself - thinking one thing and then constantly "translating into a socially acceptable form.

For me, friction as regards matters of conscience tend to pertain to subject matter rather than the decision to engage or not.
Chili wrote:People feel social anxiety when they are concerned about being accepted or criticized socially for something they can't help or something they want to do - often the thing you want to be accepted for is antisocial and definitely not something which we are bid to do by our conscience or super-ego. The desire to be socially accepted is just another urge from the id, and so social anxiety is much like food anxiety or fight-or-flight reactions.
I think the issue is less a wish to be accepted than a wish not to be actively rejected. It's quite simple, as you suggest - the avoidance of threats to one's peace of mind.
Steve3007 wrote:I soldier on with the social niceties to the end. But the end result tends to be avoidance of large numbers of social events, because of the mental effort involved.
Ha! I can imagine you giving your wife some excuse for not going out somewhere while quietly simply not feeling up to it. But, unless sick, you can't say that. One is expected to lift oneself "for the team" when not feeling up to it. At parties I tend to disappear by myself at times. My favourite interaction is one on one with a person who is similarly curious about life, the universe and everything and who doesn't to convince people about anything. Just brainstorming, really - two complex perturbations in spacetime cooperating to gain a greater understanding of reality.

To some extent it comes down to whether people seek bonding for bonding's sake or whether one seeks information exchange with bonding occurring as a matter of course rather than as an achieved aim. Is there a matter of conscience or morality there? Some extroverts seem to consider connectivity a moral matter, with solitude being thought of as selfish and snobbish, based on a "united we stand, divided we fall" attitude.

Spectrum
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Spectrum » November 15th, 2017, 10:13 pm

Georgeanna wrote:There are different aspects to conscience. I disagree with your interpretation, preferring to say that conscience is knowledge of self, awareness of moral principles that might form the basis of my actions in any given situation.

Social anxiety is an emotion, which can be defined as nervousness in a social situation.

They are not one and the same thing.
I agree with the above in principles and in general.

In terms of general accepted meaning, 'conscience' cannot be the same as 'social anxiety'.

However it is possible for the reactions and responses from our conscience faculty that could trigger 'anxiety' and in various conditions to 'social anxiety'.
The conscience faculty generally generate 'guilt' or 'moral confidence.'

As for the quote from Freud [given benefits of the doubt] one may get a better understanding of what he was trying to mean if we were to read the whole chapter or the whole book. But in general and principles, 'conscience' cannot be the same [with high correlation] as 'social anxiety'
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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LuckyR
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by LuckyR » November 16th, 2017, 12:44 am

To me social anxiety is a subset of conscience. Conscience is the battle between self interest and social criticism/acceptance ie there are two sides. The proof is that those without a conscience (sociopaths) aren't having that battle, they only care about their self interest.
"As usual... it depends."

Steve3007
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2017, 3:43 am

Greta:
My favourite interaction is one on one with a person who is similarly curious about life, the universe and everything and who doesn't [need] to convince people about anything. Just brainstorming, really - two complex perturbations in spacetime cooperating to gain a greater understanding of reality.
Yes, with age I've become increasingly annoyed with banal talk, or people who's main conversational aim is to give a long account of how they got one over on somebody. At work, the regular half hour morning conversation about the trials and tribulations of the drive to work and the hours spent comparing the merits of different makes and models of cars drive me mad. But then, the endless routine of office work seems designed to eventually drive people mad anyway. Perhaps that's why some people decide one day to come to work with an assault rifle and express their annoyance in that way. Just to stop the conversations about cars.
To some extent it comes down to whether people seek bonding for bonding's sake or whether one seeks information exchange with bonding occurring as a matter of course rather than as an achieved aim. Is there a matter of conscience or morality there? Some extroverts seem to consider connectivity a moral matter, with solitude being thought of as selfish and snobbish, based on a "united we stand, divided we fall" attitude.
I guess there's probably nearly always an element of bonding for bonding's sake. The need to connect with other human beings.

I think the people you talk about, who are suspicious of people who seek solitude, are probably used to the idea that the way to get to know people is by using small talk - "ice breakers". The person who doesn't play this game is (they feel) harder to get to know and, for humans, the stranger is instinctively dangerous. A lot of people are not comfortable in your presence until they feel they've got a handle on the type of person you are. Until then, you're a mysterious threat in the corner. An unknown quantity.

I guess that's why all the rituals of our tribes are important. It's why we display our allegiances with easily visible signs, like clothing. And it's why other easily visible signs, like skin colour, are given such importance.

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Greta
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Greta » November 16th, 2017, 5:04 am

Steve3007 wrote:Yes, with age I've become increasingly annoyed with banal talk
Ditto. I think one eventually reaches a threshold with small talk over the years where "enough is enough". An exception: the weather, which I consider beautiful and fascinating, the shifting moods of the atmosphere.
Steve3007 wrote:I guess that's why all the rituals of our tribes are important. It's why we display our allegiances with easily visible signs, like clothing. And it's why other easily visible signs, like skin colour, are given such importance.
I admit to disliking rituals - they strike me as ridiculous. Such an attitude is certainly not a great way to become popular, though. Thankfully, over time I came to realise that popularity is just one good thing in life, not the main game. (And certainly the approval of those who take display behaviour seriously is especially unimportant).

-- Updated 16 Nov 2017, 04:09 to add the following --
LuckyR wrote:To me social anxiety is a subset of conscience. Conscience is the battle between self interest and social criticism/acceptance ie there are two sides. The proof is that those without a conscience (sociopaths) aren't having that battle, they only care about their self interest.
I like your clarity, Lucky. You could say that social anxiety is a potential consequence of having a conscience, the blend of conscience with fragile self esteem.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 16th, 2017, 6:43 pm

Georgeanna
Then how would you define conscience, if not feelings of right or wrong?
Spectrum
Exactly why can't the conscience that we experience simply be social anxiety? I reject your claim that a conscience triggers social anxiety. The emotional stimuli must come first, before consciously conceiving a "right" or "wrong" feeling. And, as the generally accepted definition of a conscience is a feeling of "right" or "wrong" , this feeling must be the result of some emotional stimuli, and there isn't a better one than social anxiety, I don't believe there is a conscience only social anxiety.
LuckyR
Sociopaths and psychopaths are the result of a "disfunctional" or "abnormal" brain. Hence, a lack of empathy and social anxiety. You may say sociopaths and psychopaths do suffer from social anxiety, but there is a difference in the frustration that comes from not understanding social interactions, and the plight of the socially anxious dreading the weight placed on these interactions.

Also, the quote I gave was the only time conscience as social anxiety was mentioned throughout the book.

Spectrum
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Spectrum » November 16th, 2017, 11:19 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote: Spectrum
Exactly why can't the conscience that we experience simply be social anxiety? I reject your claim that a conscience triggers social anxiety. The emotional stimuli must come first, before consciously conceiving a "right" or "wrong" feeling. And, as the generally accepted definition of a conscience is a feeling of "right" or "wrong" , this feeling must be the result of some emotional stimuli, and there isn't a better one than social anxiety, I don't believe there is a conscience only social anxiety.
I don't agree with your simplistic definition of conscience is a feeling of "right" or "wrong."

The concept of conscience is not a feeling restricted to an experience.
(note I have done extensive research on this subject).

As I had stated somewhere the concept of "conscience" is represented by a faculty in the brain/mind like our faculty of reason and other faculties with their respective neural set-up. This faculty is represented by it core neural set-up with connection to the various faculty of the brain, e.g. emotions, pain, pleasure, reasons, moral, and many other areas.

This faculty of conscience is like a department in the brain/mind that function as judge, prosecutor, defense and jury. This faculty of conscience is strongly connected to the moral faculty which deal with moral standards.
For any human thoughts or actions and where the conscience faculty is strong, efficient and active, the internal mental 'prosecutor', 'defense' and 'jury' and judge, are activated into action. If the jury and judge determined there is a contravention of the moral standards then guilt is generated and this guilt is felt and trigger anxieties, e.g. social or whatever anxieties depending on the context.

I don't think you know of the above concept, that all normal humans has a "faculty of conscience" comprising a mental 'prosecutor', 'defense' and 'jury' and judge within one's mind and brain.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 16th, 2017, 11:23 pm

You're right, I have never heard of a conscience faculty of the brain. Perhaps you can cite something, so I don't have to take your word for it.

Spectrum
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Spectrum » November 17th, 2017, 12:32 am

Maxcady10001 wrote:You're right, I have never heard of a conscience faculty of the brain. Perhaps you can cite something, so I don't have to take your word for it.
I do not have one reference that cover all of the above.
I have inferred the above from many sources related to the subject re conscience.
If you reflect on it, you will note it is a very reasonable and tenable thesis.

Research has shown that humans has a inherent moral faculty,
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/
that is evolving, e.g. with increasing quantum of mirror neurons and others;
http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct05/mirror.aspx

Philosophically it is argued, morality is a personal and humanity endeavor, i.e. not something that is enforced by universal moral laws imposed by a God or some authority.
To manage this we need an internal moral sensors, persecutor, defense, jury and judge which represent the set up for our conscience.
Thus 'conscience' is represented by a faculty in the mind supported by its relevant neural set-up like any other mental faculties.

I suggest you research on the topic of 'conscience' extensively and keep the above in mind and you will note the reasonable theories will gravitate towards the above points I mentioned.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 17th, 2017, 1:00 am

Spectrum
Can you describe a difference between the conscience faculty you've mentioned, and the feelings of empathy, compassion, justice and fairness that make up the morality mentioned in the article. It seems weird that there would be a conscience faculty separate from a morality one.

-- Updated November 17th, 2017, 1:01 am to add the following --

I forgot a question mark for the first sentence.

-- Updated November 17th, 2017, 1:02 am to add the following --

I am enjoyed the mirror imaging link, thank you.

Spectrum
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Spectrum » November 17th, 2017, 1:16 am

Maxcady10001 wrote:Spectrum
Can you describe a difference between the conscience faculty you've mentioned, and the feelings of empathy, compassion, justice and fairness that make up the morality mentioned in the article. It seems weird that there would be a conscience faculty separate from a morality one.

I forgot a question mark for the first sentence.

I am enjoyed the mirror imaging link, thank you.
An analogy of the the morality department versus the conscience department [faculty] is that of the Legislature [Parliament who establish laws] which is separate from the judiciary [judge, courts jury, prosecutors, defense lawyers] and policing department.
The legislature is the moral department in the brain.
The judiciary is the conscience department in the brain.
They are supported by different neural set-ups in the mind and brain.
The neural set up are connected to all other relevant neural set-up.

The empathy & compassion mirror circuits are linked as inputs into the conscience circuits during the judging [jury and judge] process.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 17th, 2017, 1:41 am

With that analogy it is very easy, for me at least, to fit in social anxiety in the place of a conscience. Why couldn't social anxiety act in the exact same way as a conscience when dealing with the morality department? Social anxiety would also prevent a person from going against typically moral behavior, the same as a conscience. It only becomes a question of I will or will not be negatively judged for this action.

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