Why do we exist?

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IKnowNothing
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by IKnowNothing »

At this point in life I believe that existence is a soul modeler. A set of experiences meant to shape it. Like polishing a stone or like growing a crystal. I tend to believe the experiences themselves will be lost and all that will be left is their effect.
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by stevie »

Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
The sphere of meaninglessness is great but it is not a feeling and therefore cannot be "felt". It is impossible that an "I" appears in that sphere because "I" has meaning and meaning is incompatible with the sphere of meaninglessness. The same applies to "existence" and "importance" and "difference" and "world" and "person" and "one" and "many" etc. etc.
It seem that when you speak of "meaningless" then there is meaning which causes feeling and thus your "meaningless" lacks perfection. On the other hand it is possible to speak from the perspective of the sphere of meaninglessness, that imperturbable sphere.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Raymond »

The reason why we exist is simple. After more than 20 years looking for it in science, I hit rock bottom. Then it was shown to me. The godkinds created the universe. A deep depressing existential void befall the eternal heaven. All of godkinds were depressed. Then they had the idea to use their power of creation and the developed the right stuff for universes to develop heavenly life. All gods should be represented. And they are. Now the void is filled. They watch us play the games they used to. Let's hope the universal representatives don't get bored. We don't have the same power of creation, although some human representatives think so...
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GrayArea
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by GrayArea »

LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2022, 1:26 pm
GrayArea wrote: April 11th, 2022, 6:09 am
LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2022, 3:10 am
GrayArea wrote: April 10th, 2022, 4:03 am

You're saying that one's own importance comes from others, and not ourselves? Because I think that importance only comes from the self.

Other people can consider someone unimportant only because that they are themselves, and importance comes from the self.

But that "someone" would only care about how important they are to others, if that was an important thing for that someone to think about.
Of course, the opinion of one's importance can (and you're saying should) come from self evaluation. However, by that measure depressed folks would have low importance but medicated depressed people would have more importance. That paradigm seems arbitrary and thus not very interesting (or important) to my eye.
Another argument to this is that the way we perceive does not decide importance, it only discovers them. Importance is made through actions—even when no one has perceived a sense of importance within someone, that someone can still be important. Then again, I am saying as if I "know" that "someone" is important, as if I have already perceived that someone.
Oh, I already said that folks who feel they are unimportant can be (and probably are) important... to someone else. That's my thing. What's your thing? Is it solely one's own opinion (the self like you said before) or something else?
It's not opinions themselves that determine who is important. Opinions are just an indication, not a factor.

But to be honest, at the end of the day, this importance or influence to the world that the OP was talking about, is already achieved by existence itself. No matter how much things we influence in this world—people, our planet, the universe, etc—we already have influenced existence by simply being a component to it. Influenced the only thing that truly matters.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by LuckyR »

GrayArea wrote: April 28th, 2022, 4:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2022, 1:26 pm
GrayArea wrote: April 11th, 2022, 6:09 am
LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2022, 3:10 am

Of course, the opinion of one's importance can (and you're saying should) come from self evaluation. However, by that measure depressed folks would have low importance but medicated depressed people would have more importance. That paradigm seems arbitrary and thus not very interesting (or important) to my eye.
Another argument to this is that the way we perceive does not decide importance, it only discovers them. Importance is made through actions—even when no one has perceived a sense of importance within someone, that someone can still be important. Then again, I am saying as if I "know" that "someone" is important, as if I have already perceived that someone.
Oh, I already said that folks who feel they are unimportant can be (and probably are) important... to someone else. That's my thing. What's your thing? Is it solely one's own opinion (the self like you said before) or something else?
It's not opinions themselves that determine who is important. Opinions are just an indication, not a factor.

But to be honest, at the end of the day, this importance or influence to the world that the OP was talking about, is already achieved by existence itself. No matter how much things we influence in this world—people, our planet, the universe, etc—we already have influenced existence by simply being a component to it. Influenced the only thing that truly matters.
Well importance is a relative (not absolute) measure. Thus we can't all be important by the same measure (say, becsuse we exist) because is we're all important, then no one is because we're all average.

Just like we can't all be tall. If everyone is 7 feet tall, then 7 foot would be average height (not tall).

Of course, I stated we CAN all be important... to someone. That's because we are important (and often also unimportant) by different measures.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by GrayArea »

LuckyR wrote: April 29th, 2022, 2:05 am
GrayArea wrote: April 28th, 2022, 4:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2022, 1:26 pm
GrayArea wrote: April 11th, 2022, 6:09 am

Another argument to this is that the way we perceive does not decide importance, it only discovers them. Importance is made through actions—even when no one has perceived a sense of importance within someone, that someone can still be important. Then again, I am saying as if I "know" that "someone" is important, as if I have already perceived that someone.
Oh, I already said that folks who feel they are unimportant can be (and probably are) important... to someone else. That's my thing. What's your thing? Is it solely one's own opinion (the self like you said before) or something else?
It's not opinions themselves that determine who is important. Opinions are just an indication, not a factor.

But to be honest, at the end of the day, this importance or influence to the world that the OP was talking about, is already achieved by existence itself. No matter how much things we influence in this world—people, our planet, the universe, etc—we already have influenced existence by simply being a component to it. Influenced the only thing that truly matters.
Well importance is a relative (not absolute) measure. Thus we can't all be important by the same measure (say, becsuse we exist) because is we're all important, then no one is because we're all average.

Just like we can't all be tall. If everyone is 7 feet tall, then 7 foot would be average height (not tall).

Of course, I stated we CAN all be important... to someone. That's because we are important (and often also unimportant) by different measures.
Existence is the only influence that truly matters not because other forms of influences amount to literally zero, but because they amount to a very very small amount.

But not only this, to influence something less, is in turn, to actually influence the "degree of influencing", just as much as influencing something more. A negative or less influence can count as a positive in this case, just like scalar values in physics such as the concept of distance—negative distance still counts. To not influence something by 10 is as potent as influencing something by 10.

And for negative influences, it's like how subtracting 10 or adding 10 to the number 0 brings the same amount of change.

It might sound like I'm being irrationally obsessed with everyone being equal because I keep repeating myself, but I want to clarify that I'm not, nor do I wish to be. Just so you know—I am just stating my own logic behind what I think.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: Why do we exist?

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Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
We live, we die.
Meaning is a human conceit. You can have as much or as little as you desire.
Make it up as you go along.

Why do we Exist?
Because we are not yet dead. Enjoy your life and try not to be a C*nT!
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Niki »

Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
To be fair, there is undeniably a progress thorough human's history. We have now become a "modern" civilization, compared to thousand years ago. We can now even go to space, where we couldn't in the past.

What's depressing though (at least for me), is to know that I'll probably just become another average, ordinary person just like million others, even though everybody told me that I have potentials, I'm very talented, etc etc etc. Life is full of irony & tragedy. Some people are lucky, some people are not. So what about the 'unlucky/unfortunate' ones?
My name is Niki Wonoto. I'm 41 years old guy from Indonesia. Nihilism, Pessimism, Antinatalism, Promortalism, Efilism.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Sy Borg »

Niki wrote: April 30th, 2022, 8:56 pm
Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
To be fair, there is undeniably a progress thorough human's history. We have now become a "modern" civilization, compared to thousand years ago. We can now even go to space, where we couldn't in the past.

What's depressing though (at least for me), is to know that I'll probably just become another average, ordinary person just like million others, even though everybody told me that I have potentials, I'm very talented, etc etc etc. Life is full of irony & tragedy. Some people are lucky, some people are not. So what about the 'unlucky/unfortunate' ones?
We do what most people do, live and do things until we die. As will VIPs.

It's a matter of perspective. In truth, each of us is miraculous. We are even remarkable as part of this extraordinary planet that's covered with so many different kinds of extraordinary entities. Mammals in general are awesome beings, and humans have that extra x factor (at least to our perspective haha).

However, in order to function, we tend to ignore how extraordinary we and the rest of Earth are and focus on practicalities. That involves informally rating each other, so some people are considered to be successes, with most others considered relatively ordinary. That is, "relatively ordinary" in a milieu that is comprised of the extraordinary. There's nothing even remotely like us Earthlings for many light-years all around us. Special or not, we might as well enjoy how amazing we are before the opportunities dry up.
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Re: Why do we exist?

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Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
My footnote provides an indication that significance of existence cannot be denoted empirically (which includes psychologically) while that in the same time would prove its significance (= meaningfulness).

When one considers the value in the world - which includes everything of which it can be said that it 'matters' within the scope of a human perspective - that value logically must have been preceded by an aspect that is necessarily meaningful but that cannot be 'value' by the simple logical truth that something cannot be the origin of itself. (empirical value cannot be the fundamental origin of empirical value while in the same time that origin is necessarily meaningful).

When one considers the concept pure meaning as the only ground for relevance in the scope of one's perspective on life, one can become detached or go beyond attachment of 'value' while fulfilling a moral (meaningful) life, which includes optimal performance in life's bigger whole, such as a community of people, or humanity in general.

Morality (a moral or meaningful life) can be achieved by addressing the question "What is 'good'?".

A simple act of kindness towards others could be sufficient and when you would investigate it, you would discover that such acts are considered the foundation for 'exceptional human performance'. You must first 'give' to 'receive' is a well known wisdom in 'human performance'.

My logic would indicate that it would be best to serve life instead of trying to stand above it. "An attempt to stand above life, as being life, logically results in a figurative stone that sinks in the ocean of time.". Meaning cannot be mastered empirically. One cannot know (in an empirical sense) what the meaning of life is but in the same time by that fact one can be certain of it.

Philosopher Aristotle considers a state of philosophical contemplation (eudaimonia) the greatest virtue (highest human good). It is a strive to serve life: the discovery of "good" from which 'value' follows (the act of valuing, truth finding etc). It would be an everlasting quest and thus philosophy (morality) would have no end and would advance into infinity.
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Re: Why do we exist?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 30th, 2022, 9:46 pm
Niki wrote: April 30th, 2022, 8:56 pm
Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
To be fair, there is undeniably a progress thorough human's history. We have now become a "modern" civilization, compared to thousand years ago. We can now even go to space, where we couldn't in the past.

What's depressing though (at least for me), is to know that I'll probably just become another average, ordinary person just like million others, even though everybody told me that I have potentials, I'm very talented, etc etc etc. Life is full of irony & tragedy. Some people are lucky, some people are not. So what about the 'unlucky/unfortunate' ones?
We do what most people do, live and do things until we die. As will VIPs.

It's a matter of perspective. In truth, each of us is miraculous. We are even remarkable as part of this extraordinary planet that's covered with so many different kinds of extraordinary entities. Mammals in general are awesome beingsc and humans have that extra x factor (at least to our perspective haha).

However, in order to function, we tend to ignore how extraordinary we and the rest of Earth are and focus on practicalities. That involves informally rating each other, so some people are considered to be successes, with most others considered relatively ordinary. That is, "relatively ordinary" in a milieu that is comprised of the extraordinary. There's nothing even remotely like us Earthlings for many light-years all around us. Special or not, we might as well enjoy how amazing we are before the opportunities dry up.
Beautifully said. I am a firm believer that any person could potentially contribute the greatest advantage for humanity, perhaps most often in many diverse unseen ways.

For example, when a person is terminally ill, I believe that the struggle with disease is not meaningless and that it will contribute to the chance of survival and strength of human kind. The idea that humans stand independently from each other as meaningless biochemical processes is nonsensical in my opinion and may harm what is required for successful evolution. Not giving up could be essential and should be valued and rewarded socially to be effective.

It may be best to serve life instead of trying to stand above it.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why do we exist?

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psyreporter wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:19 amFor example, when a person is terminally ill, I believe that the struggle with disease is not meaningless and that it will contribute to the chance of survival and strength of human kind. The idea that humans stand independently from each other as meaningless biochemical processes is nonsensical in my opinion and may harm what is required for successful evolution. Not giving up could be essential and should be valued and rewarded socially to be effective.

It may be best to serve life instead of trying to stand above it.
Alas, if I become terminally ill and have the chance, I would want to check out ASAP rather than play out the painful dance of death in a hospital.

And I don't see biochemistry as meaningless. That's another miracle we take for granted. It took many millions of years for the Earth to develop sophisticated biochemistry. Even the evolution of RNA and DNA is special, given that there would have been many other replicating complex sugars competing with these replicators, and RNA and DNA won in much the same way as Homo sapiens won its competition with other hominid species. For so long, the Earth was mostly just covered in basalt and water. I see the journey from magma to abiogenesis is, to me, almost as poignant as the journey from simple microbes to today's biosphere, including us techno-apes, of course.

It's easy to take the wonders of nature - including humans - for granted. In that sense, nothing is meaningless. Then again, everything can also be seen as meaningless, given that each of us has a destiny of becoming either fertiliser or pollution. I also find that meaning is not consistent; it varies with circumstance, mood and levels of commitment.
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Re: Why do we exist?

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If we all do good for others, we both have an automatic purpose (doing good) and are happier for it.
any ideas?
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by snt »

Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
Feeling valued is important. In business science empowerment and giving all people a feeling of purpose is a modern trend. From this perspective it can be seen that with culture architecture and management, people can be provided with meaning and a feeling of fulfilment in life, which translates into happiness and health and in turn performance.

It is difficult to find meaning independently. Research into icons of talented people in history has shown that they all had key people in their life that provided motivation and an authentic feeling of being valued.

From my perspective, meaning is fundamental to human nature (precedes it) and therefore it would be sufficient to fulfil a moral life, which philosophy can provide.

Many philosophers have argued that virtue (a moral life) is the highest human good. From that perspective, no human is average and a simple act of kindness towards another person is sufficient to initiate a foundation for a meaningful life. The initiation can be done by any person in any condition and it can have profound - life changing - effects on the lives of others.

Morality in daily life isn't directly visible in history (i.e. 'change the world') but its effects and importance for human and cultural evolution is profound.
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by LuckyR »

snt wrote: June 4th, 2022, 7:19 am
Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
Feeling valued is important. In business science empowerment and giving all people a feeling of purpose is a modern trend. From this perspective it can be seen that with culture architecture and management, people can be provided with meaning and a feeling of fulfilment in life, which translates into happiness and health and in turn performance.

It is difficult to find meaning independently. Research into icons of talented people in history has shown that they all had key people in their life that provided motivation and an authentic feeling of being valued.

From my perspective, meaning is fundamental to human nature (precedes it) and therefore it would be sufficient to fulfil a moral life, which philosophy can provide.

Many philosophers have argued that virtue (a moral life) is the highest human good. From that perspective, no human is average and a simple act of kindness towards another person is sufficient to initiate a foundation for a meaningful life. The initiation can be done by any person in any condition and it can have profound - life changing - effects on the lives of others.

Morality in daily life isn't directly visible in history (i.e. 'change the world') but its effects and importance for human and cultural evolution is profound.
I agree with you that the modern (social media driven) trend to use public, social yardsticks to measure ordinary citizens is a loser's game. That is, it leads to envy and disappointment and researchers confirm, ultimately depression (especially in young girls).

When measured against local, familial and neighborhood yardsticks, just about everyone can find small (and not so small) victories and accomplishments to rightly feel proud of and truly do elevate oneself.
"As usual... it depends."
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