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Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

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Maxcady10001
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Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 28th, 2018, 2:57 pm

If a person is a determinist are they necessarily a realist?
If a determinist views every act as caused, but never experiences a necessary cause, only a sufficient cause, they're assuming an act is caused outside their experience of causation, so are determinists necessarily realists?
A realist believes in a reality independent of their experience.

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Halc
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Halc » March 28th, 2018, 5:13 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:
March 28th, 2018, 2:57 pm
If a person is a determinist are they necessarily a realist?
...
A realist believes in a reality independent of their experience.
Assuming that definition of realist (which covers most non-idealistic views), let us consider a determinist that is not one. So if this person does not believe in a reality independent of their experience, what is it they believe is determined then? Well, the only thing remaining I guess, which is their experience.
Can a person believe that experience defines reality, and yet that experience is somehow determined? By what? Prior experience? I can't actually think of a reason why this cannot be, but it is an unusual stance none the less.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 28th, 2018, 6:47 pm

I do believe experience can define reality for a person, but for them to say any of their experience is caused, even by prior experience, would contradict what they believe to be experience or reality. Because, necessary causes are never experienced, so an action can never be said to have been caused, if going by experience. It would be a contradiction because what they say is reality, experience, is never experienced.
I have recently been trying to escape any thoughts that would lead to realism, and it appears I can no longer look to causation or determinism.

Eduk
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Eduk » March 29th, 2018, 3:47 pm

A trait of the psychopath is to imagine the world does not exist without them, call it egotism if you will. So you could give that a go?
Unknown means unknown.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 29th, 2018, 4:03 pm

I have another question. Could a philosophical realist have a probabilistic view of the world? Since a realist believes all of existence to be absolute or completely objective, how could they say there is a probability of anything existing, when it certainly exists? Can you answer this Eduk?

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 29th, 2018, 4:06 pm

Can anyone answer it?

Eduk
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Eduk » March 29th, 2018, 4:38 pm

I think a realist would not pretend to know how the nature of reality operated.
Unknown means unknown.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 29th, 2018, 5:11 pm

Just by being a realist, a realist presumes to know the nature of reality. To know there is a reality that they are not a part of. Another question. Consider the idea of a family eating dinner in a country far from yours. You do not know if there is a family eating dinner, but can you assume based on the time that there is such a family? That there is a probability of a family eating dinner in that country at that time? A realist would have to say yes. Because, there is a reality independent theirs, just as they assume the world continues without them, they must assume there are families seperate theirs that eat at certain times. In fact, a realist must assume all probabilities as absolutes.

If reality is absolute, what is probable is absolute as well, since what is probable corresponds to what is absolute. It is no longer just probable but absolute. If there is a probability of a family eating dinner, there is a family eating dinner, since a realist will say there are families that eat dinner outside if my awareness of it. Since families eat dinner, if a family is probably eating dinner, there is a family absolutely eating dinner. A realist cannot say something is probable because everything is absolute, so whatever can be, is.

What do you think of this Eduk, instead of an insult, why don't you put more thought into it.

Eduk
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Eduk » March 29th, 2018, 5:36 pm

Just by being alive I am axiomatic. It's sadly unavoidable. Assuming there is a reality independent of ones own self is just making fewer assumptions than other beliefs. Of course it's logically impossible to be subjective without something objective, what exactly is the purely subjective being subjective with? However being logically impossible is not necessarily the end of the world, it's technically possible, I suppose. Much in the same way it's technically possible for a monkey to hammer out the complete works of Shakespeare. However I see no practical reason to consider it real.
It also rather obviously defeats itself in that my subjective reality could be objective and yours could be pure subjectivity and we would both be absolutely right.
As to probabilities and absolutes. I can't follow your logic. Your initial definition of realist seems to have morphed into determinist? I personally see no contradiction with saying the world appears to be deterministic but gives non deterministic results. How that is to be falls back on my previous answer of unknown. I realise unknown is unsatisfactory. But being unsatisfied is sometimes the very best you could possibly do.
Unknown means unknown.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 31st, 2018, 7:55 am

It's logically impossible for anything objective to be subjective. What is subjective, is not subjective with anything. Where is the connection between the subjective and objective? What you call objective is what i've seen called inter-subjectivity, by no means could anything objective be subjective.

But, considering the realist point of view, I believe I have laid out the logical steps a realist goes through, and shown why a realist must believe anything that is possible necessarily exists.

1.Reality is a conception of what makes up the world

2. What is possible is what can fit this conception, or what can be perceived

3. What is possible is what can be perceived

4. What can be perceived is unto itself

5. What is perception is unto itself

6.What is perception is not the world, and the world not its perception

7. What is possible is not perception

8. What is possible is unto itself

9. What exists is not possible but necessary

10. Therefore reality exists, to deny it would be a contradiction

11. If reality exists perception exists

12. If perception exists the world exists

13. If the world exists what is possible exists

I believe this is the point of view of realists, and it leads to all possible worlds being necessary, since what is possible is what can be perceived.

Eduk
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Eduk » March 31st, 2018, 8:33 am

It's logically impossible to exist, and yet here we are.
Unknown means unknown.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 31st, 2018, 8:57 am

Have I made any mistakes in the propsition series? Would a realist accept that everything possible exists necessarily?

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 31st, 2018, 9:24 am

Revised propositions
I had to change number 3.

1.Reality is a conception of what makes up the world

2. What is possible is what can fit this conception, or what can be perceived

3. What is perceived is not its perception

4. What can be perceived is unto itself

5. What is perception is unto itself

6.What is perception is not the world, and the world not its perception

7. What is possible is not perception

8. What is possible is unto itself

9. What exists is not possible but necessary

10. Therefore reality exists, to deny it would be a contradiction

11. If reality exists perception exists

12. If perception exists the world exists

13. If the world exists what is possible

Eduk
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Eduk » March 31st, 2018, 9:47 am

I can't speak for realists. Certainly some believe things exist necessarily. Others wouldn't be so absolute. I can't follow your list so I can't comment.
Unknown means unknown.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Is a determinist necessarily a realist?

Post by Maxcady10001 » March 31st, 2018, 9:53 am

Where does it go wrong?

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