What are the Gods of man?

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Sy Borg
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: February 15th, 2021, 6:36 pm
Greta wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:26 pm

Nope, it's more than fair - it's a call to accountability that is long overdue.

Times have changed. Christians do not revere nature at all, not today (though no doubt a cowed and invisible minority exists in their ranks, too afraid to speak out). Christians, for the most part, see ecosystems and other animals as nothing more than resources for "divine" humans.

Part of this is due to the natural Christian antipathy for science because the latter kept exposing falsehoods in the ancient doctrine.

Today, the vast majority of Christians are vehemently against any political party that aims to reduce the rush of extinctions and destruction of ecosystems. This is indisputable. How often in the last four years have you heard Christians speaking out publicly to protest against extinctions and to protect ecosystems? How many speak out on those issues? I haven't heard of any. Contrast this silence with their noisy enthusiasm for demonising gay people or young women seeking abortions.

Christians have had numerous chances to show how much that they "revere the Earth", and they have failed to do so every single time, and over a period spanning many decades. This is not just the case in the US but in all western countries.

If I seem especially miffed about this, I am. If Christians actually cared about other species and ecosystems that would be a huge boost for the beleaguered natural world - it would be a tipping point that would ensure action. But they will not help. It's too much fun kicking LGBTIQ people.
Malarky! The pope -- who leads the Christian Church with by far the most members -- issued an environmental enyclical five years ago, calling environmental degradation "sinful". In his encyclical he wrote (among other things) that Christians "must forcibly reject the notion that our being created in God's image and given domination over the earth justifies absolute domination over other creatures." Here's a Washington Post article about his encyclical: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... vironment/

Let's not assume that the Evangelical and Fundamentlist wings of the Christian movement represent the entire movement, or, indeed, that they march in lock step on environmental issues.
Shouting "malarkey" adds nothing but amusement, at best. Referring to Dawkins et al as "The New Atheists" betrays an odd hostility for a self-professed atheist, given that RD and the others have often said that they reject that label, and it's thus rarely used by secular people.

Your response ultimately fails to address the issue. A tepid statement by the Pope about the natural environment once per decade does not compare with the regular incandescent attacks on gays and women's choices by those under him, seemingly sanctioned by him.

When I see Christians vote en masse in favour of the environment - rather than against it, which has long been the norm - then I will believe that Christians care about the environment. At this stage, I see a rush away from the traditional churches to rapidly-growing Pentecostalism, that is now very closely tied to Trumpism. Here's a sample of his evangelist "spiritual advisor" (who appears to have no problems with Trump's anti-environment policies, or shamelessly demanding money so people can buy their ticket to heaven).

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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Greta wrote: February 16th, 2021, 1:19 am
Shouting "malarkey" adds nothing but amusement, at best. Referring to Dawkins et al as "The New Atheists" betrays an odd hostility for a self-professed atheist, given that RD and the others have often said that they reject that label, and it's thus rarely used by secular people.

Your response ultimately fails to address the issue. A tepid statement by the Pope about the natural environment once per decade does not compare with the regular incandescent attacks on gays and women's choices by those under him, seemingly sanctioned by him.

I'm sorry I didn't use whatever term (and pronoun) Richard Dawkins prefers. I just didn't know.

The pope's "tepid" defense of the environment is somehow nulified by his "incandescent" attacks on gay's and women's rights. The metaphors don't seem to be the only things that are mixed up. How is the Church's positiion on gay rights relevant to its position on the environment? Must environmentalists march in lockstep on a whole slew of social issues, or is it possible to want to protect the environment, and think that fornication remains a sin?

I didn't watch the video from Trump's spiritual advisor. I watch too much TV already, and I don't see how it could possibly be relevant to the discussion. I doubt that Trump would choose a radical environmentalist as his spiritual advisor.

As an aside about your "New Atheist" crack, here in Eugene, Oregon there's a war memorial. It's a slab of polished stone, inscribed with the names of Lane County residents who have died in military action. They are divided by which war killed them: WW1, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, and then (here's the problem) "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "Operation Enduring Freedom Afghanistan".

Propagandists want to choose the labels by which they (and others) will be called. But the rest of us need not comply. The idiotic propaganda names for the last two "operations" don't honor the dead, they insult them. Over time, propaganda labels become so instilled in the minds of the public that it makes sense to use them. An example of that is "pro life" and "pro choice". But if the media hadn't capitulated to the porpagandists in the first place, those titles wouldn't have gained traction. I'm not sure why Dawkins objects to "New Atheist" -- he'd probably prefer a propagandizing label of his own choosing -- but we need not comply.
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:58 am
Greta wrote: February 16th, 2021, 1:19 am
Shouting "malarkey" adds nothing but amusement, at best. Referring to Dawkins et al as "The New Atheists" betrays an odd hostility for a self-professed atheist, given that RD and the others have often said that they reject that label, and it's thus rarely used by secular people.

Your response ultimately fails to address the issue. A tepid statement by the Pope about the natural environment once per decade does not compare with the regular incandescent attacks on gays and women's choices by those under him, seemingly sanctioned by him.

I'm sorry I didn't use whatever term (and pronoun) Richard Dawkins prefers. I just didn't know.

The pope's "tepid" defense of the environment is somehow nulified by his "incandescent" attacks on gay's and women's rights. The metaphors don't seem to be the only things that are mixed up. How is the Church's positiion on gay rights relevant to its position on the environment? Must environmentalists march in lockstep on a whole slew of social issues, or is it possible to want to protect the environment, and think that fornication remains a sin?
Why are you asking this question? Are you really unaware of opportunity costs? It's obvious that all churches are much more interested in promoting the rejection of gays than promoting environmental protection.

If churches put the same passion into protecting the environment that they pot into attacking gays and women needing abortions, there would be some hope for the next generation. As things stand, the latest generations have no hope for the future at all, and for good reason.
Ecurb wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:58 amI didn't watch the video from Trump's spiritual advisor. I watch too much TV already, and I don't see how it could possibly be relevant to the discussion. I doubt that Trump would choose a radical environmentalist as his spiritual advisor.
A few minutes of your time. Go on, watch it and see the kind of insanity and corruption that penetrated the corridors of power in the name of the church.

Not sure why you are so hostile towards Dawkins. Many millions of young people have been saved from the fear of hell thanks to his efforts. Until the church's ugly and manipulative teachings were challenged, may young people suffered deep trauma from the idea that they could go to hell. Helping to save people from superstitious fear is a good thing, yes? No?
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Greta wrote: February 16th, 2021, 7:03 pm
Why are you asking this question? Are you really unaware of opportunity costs? It's obvious that all churches are much more interested in promoting the rejection of gays than promoting environmental protection.

If churches put the same passion into protecting the environment that they pot into attacking gays and women needing abortions, there would be some hope for the next generation. As things stand, the latest generations have no hope for the future at all, and for good reason.
I don't see that as a reasonable comparison. It's sort of like Christopher Hitchens slamming Mother Theresa for failing to offer medical care at her hospices. Mother Theresa was a nun, not a doctor. Her role as a nun was to offer love and spiritual care, not medicine. Criticizing churches for a failure to preach environmentalism is like criticizing Mother Theresa for failing to practice medicine. It's a non sequitur. I don't practice medicine, either, and neither did Hitchens. If you want to criticize churches for their political activism opposing abortion rights or gay marriage -- fine. But what's the Pope supposed to do about the environment other than what he has done?

A few minutes of your time. Go on, watch it and see the kind of insanity and corruption that penetrated the corridors of power in the name of the church.

Not sure why you are so hostile towards Dawkins. Many millions of young people have been saved from the fear of hell thanks to his efforts. Until the church's ugly and manipulative teachings were challenged, may young people suffered deep trauma from the idea that they could go to hell. Helping to save people from superstitious fear is a good thing, yes? No?

I'm not particularly hostile toward Dawkins When I taught "Introduction to Anthropology" as a grad student I assigned his book "The Selfish Gene". But he (like you) seems to pick the easiest religious targets to criticize. I feel like telling him to pick on someone his own size. Except I don't think he'd be able to. (Hitchens, by the way, was a public intellectual and I blame him for his approach more than I blame Dawkins. He should have known better.)
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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OK. I watched the first 3 minutes of your video (after that I couldn't take it any more). The lady is a lunatic. Is that really whom you want to argue against as representing the Christian worldview? If it is, I'd tell you (as I'd tell Dawkins), "She is not worthy of your steel. Find a more worthy adversary."
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Like the hound of hell, the monster has many heads.
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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popeye1945 wrote: February 16th, 2021, 10:58 pm Like the hound of hell, the monster has many heads.
Good one!
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: February 16th, 2021, 10:13 pm
Greta wrote: February 16th, 2021, 7:03 pm
Why are you asking this question? Are you really unaware of opportunity costs? It's obvious that all churches are much more interested in promoting the rejection of gays than promoting environmental protection.

If churches put the same passion into protecting the environment that they pot into attacking gays and women needing abortions, there would be some hope for the next generation. As things stand, the latest generations have no hope for the future at all, and for good reason.
I don't see that as a reasonable comparison. It's sort of like Christopher Hitchens slamming Mother Theresa for failing to offer medical care at her hospices. Mother Theresa was a nun, not a doctor. Her role as a nun was to offer love and spiritual care, not medicine. Criticizing churches for a failure to preach environmentalism is like criticizing Mother Theresa for failing to practice medicine.
A false comparison.
While Genesis 1:26-28 suggests that human beings have a special role within Creation, it does not necessarily follow that they have more value than the rest of Creation. One interpretation of how human beings bear the image of God (and the most popular view among Old Testament scholars today) says that human beings are like God because they perform the functions of God and are God’s representatives. As God’s representatives, Genesis 1:26-28 indicates more of a caretaking or stewardship role. Traditionally, these were known as the dominion verses. A more accurate description may be the stewardship verses. Rather than giving human beings rights over nature, these verses give us the responsibility to care for nature in a way that is consistent with God’s will.
Nor do I see how the churchmen can consider themselves to be experts on human sexuality and natural diversity. But they speak about human sexuality more than just about anything else. Meanwhile, homosexuality plays only a minor role in the Bible's admonitions - along with eating shellfish. Also, scholars believe many of these admonitions related to the rape of prisoners or war as an act of degradation.

Ecurb wrote: February 16th, 2021, 10:13 pm
Not sure why you are so hostile towards Dawkins. Many millions of young people have been saved from the fear of hell thanks to his efforts. Until the church's ugly and manipulative teachings were challenged, may young people suffered deep trauma from the idea that they could go to hell. Helping to save people from superstitious fear is a good thing, yes? No?
I'm not particularly hostile toward Dawkins When I taught "Introduction to Anthropology" as a grad student I assigned his book "The Selfish Gene". But he (like you) seems to pick the easiest religious targets to criticize. I feel like telling him to pick on someone his own size. Except I don't think he'd be able to. (Hitchens, by the way, was a public intellectual and I blame him for his approach more than I blame Dawkins. He should have known better.)
It's not true that I look for any targets to criticise. They presented themselves to me loud and clear.

As an agnostic, and presumably more inclined towards belief in a deity than you (since you claimed to be atheist) I have less reason than you to look for issues. However, what's happening today is both glaring and a clear sign that there's trouble ahead.
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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OK, Greta, you've finally persuaded me. If Jesus, Mohammed and Moses were so smart, why didn't they address problems like global warming, the proliferation of nuclear weapons, and kids spending too much time on their smart phones? Since Moses spent 40 years wandering through the burning sands of the desert, you'd think global warming might have concerned him more than coveting one's neighbor's wife!

Worse, the Buddha never once mentioned the ozone hole in the atmosphere! Where was his head at!?

Since we humans are supposed to be stewards of the Earth, you'd think Jesus would have told us to eschew air travel, which contributes to indecent expense of fossil fuel.

A rational religion would have gotten rid of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and replaced it with. "Thou shalt commute to work by bicycle, unless it's raining or snowing."

Even God is far from blameless. When he appeared to Moses in that burning bush, he was pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere!

As Moses might have said, "Oy vey!"
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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What are the gods of man? Fearful immaturity, to tell disciples to grow up is futile, not to mention frustrating.
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: February 17th, 2021, 11:02 am OK, Greta, you've finally persuaded me. If Jesus, Mohammed and Moses were so smart, why didn't they address problems like global warming, the proliferation of nuclear weapons, and kids spending too much time on their smart phones? Since Moses spent 40 years wandering through the burning sands of the desert, you'd think global warming might have concerned him more than coveting one's neighbor's wife!

Worse, the Buddha never once mentioned the ozone hole in the atmosphere! Where was his head at!?

Since we humans are supposed to be stewards of the Earth, you'd think Jesus would have told us to eschew air travel, which contributes to indecent expense of fossil fuel.

A rational religion would have gotten rid of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and replaced it with. "Thou shalt commute to work by bicycle, unless it's raining or snowing."

Even God is far from blameless. When he appeared to Moses in that burning bush, he was pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere!

As Moses might have said, "Oy vey!"
Or, they could try this. Take all of the anger and hatred they feel for gays and transpeople and devote it towards responsible stewardship of nature.

Or is that too wild an idea for you?
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2021, 6:18 pm

Or, they could try this. Take all of the anger and hatred they feel for gays and transpeople and devote it towards responsible stewardship of nature.

Or is that too wild an idea for you?
"Anger and hatred"? I thought Christians love gay and trans people. That's why they want to turn them from their sinful ways. Besides, if we are going to criticize people for failing to perform what we see as potentially meritorious actions, who (to quote Hamlet) "would 'scape a whipping"?
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: April 27th, 2021, 12:02 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2021, 6:18 pmOr, they could try this. Take all of the anger and hatred they feel for gays and transpeople and devote it towards responsible stewardship of nature.

Or is that too wild an idea for you?
"Anger and hatred"? I thought Christians love gay and trans people. That's why they want to turn them from their sinful ways. Besides, if we are going to criticize people for failing to perform what we see as potentially meritorious actions, who (to quote Hamlet) "would 'scape a whipping"?
Oddly enough, there seems to be less enthusiasm to save child molesters. Less love for them perhaps? That's odd, given that Christian institutions molest children at a far higher frequency than in secular ones, so ideally they would focus on fixing that rather than gays and transpeople who are just harmlessly shlepping along, trying to have a good life.

The scale of the Catholic and Protestant Churches' betrayal and hypocrisy was shocking, after decades of being feed nonsense that those religions were the highest moral authority. They now lost a ton of moral authority.

If religions cared, they would work to help slow extinctions and reduce animal suffering, especially given that their "man is divine, with dominion over the soulless beasts" line resulted in enormous unnecessary animal cruelty, and probably before Descartes' grotesque experiments.
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 27th, 2021, 5:52 pm
Oddly enough, there seems to be less enthusiasm to save child molesters. Less love for them perhaps? That's odd, given that Christian institutions molest children at a far higher frequency than in secular ones, so ideally they would focus on fixing that rather than gays and transpeople who are just harmlessly shlepping along, trying to have a good life.

The scale of the Catholic and Protestant Churches' betrayal and hypocrisy was shocking, after decades of being feed nonsense that those religions were the highest moral authority. They now lost a ton of moral authority.

If religions cared, they would work to help slow extinctions and reduce animal suffering, especially given that their "man is divine, with dominion over the soulless beasts" line resulted in enormous unnecessary animal cruelty, and probably before Descartes' grotesque experiments.
To the best of my knowledge, "Christian institutions" never molested any children. People did. And I'm quite certain that most Christians disappprove and are particularly enthusiastic about saving the transgressors. Also, if God can wipe out all the first born Egyptians, and everyone except Noah and his family, why should we expect Christians to help slow extinctions?

I'm guessing that Christians are just as concerned with the environment and with animal cruelty as non-Christians (on average). We could all care more, and do more, but most of us don't care enough, and even those who do could do more. Therefore, your critique seems nonsensical. It seems silly to disparage Christians as hypocrites for failing to do what atheists and agnostics also fail to do. "There is none righteous, no, not one." (I'll grant that the child molestation scandal in the Catholic Church is beyond the pale, and the Church is blameworthy.)
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb wrote: April 27th, 2021, 8:40 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 27th, 2021, 5:52 pm
Oddly enough, there seems to be less enthusiasm to save child molesters. Less love for them perhaps? That's odd, given that Christian institutions molest children at a far higher frequency than in secular ones, so ideally they would focus on fixing that rather than gays and transpeople who are just harmlessly shlepping along, trying to have a good life.

The scale of the Catholic and Protestant Churches' betrayal and hypocrisy was shocking, after decades of being feed nonsense that those religions were the highest moral authority. They now lost a ton of moral authority.

If religions cared, they would work to help slow extinctions and reduce animal suffering, especially given that their "man is divine, with dominion over the soulless beasts" line resulted in enormous unnecessary animal cruelty, and probably before Descartes' grotesque experiments.
To the best of my knowledge, "Christian institutions" never molested any children. People did. And I'm quite certain that most Christians disappprove and are particularly enthusiastic about saving the transgressors. Also, if God can wipe out all the first born Egyptians, and everyone except Noah and his family, why should we expect Christians to help slow extinctions?

I'm guessing that Christians are just as concerned with the environment and with animal cruelty as non-Christians (on average). We could all care more, and do more, but most of us don't care enough, and even those who do could do more. Therefore, your critique seems nonsensical. It seems silly to disparage Christians as hypocrites for failing to do what atheists and agnostics also fail to do. "There is none righteous, no, not one." (I'll grant that the child molestation scandal in the Catholic Church is beyond the pale, and the Church is blameworthy.)
I'll agree to disagree. I stand by my criticisms of church priorities and their massive hypocrisy and betrayal of trust. Whether there are sincere individuals or not, the actions (and inactions) of the institutions as a whole speak louder than any rationalisation.
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