What are the Gods of man?

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Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

popeye1945 wrote: February 12th, 2021, 6:44 pm Ecurb, I think the bible should be studied as literature, actually, to understand the culture it is necessary to understand it. I agree it has wonderful literary treasures within. It however, can no longer even pretend to be a guide for a modern humanity. I take it you are religious, so we are probably at odds with each other from the start, as I am an atheist. I believe Joseph Campbell was an atheist, but, he certainly knew the value of myth and ritual. Humanity is foundering right now, really without a functional myth. I have my doubts if humanity will survive much longer at anyrate, so creating a modern myth to carry us into the future may be futile. All we can do is hope for best.
I'm an atheist. I come from a long line of atheists, and practically everyone I know is an atheist.

I see religion as one of the Humanities. At universities, the Humanities include the Departments of Anthropology, History, Music, Art (not Fine Arts degrees, but the study of art), Literature, Languges and (of course) Philosophy. If we want to understand humanity, we do well to study the Humanities. Literature, music, art, and language are among the greatest human creations, as is religion. But although we have created these things, we should recognize that they have also created us. Without language (as one example) we would be very different creatures -- it informs both our manner of thinking, and the subject matter of our thoughts.

Religion (i'd suggest) is a guide for modern humanity whether we like it or not. It has been a key feature of culture for millenia untold, and the Desert Religions have influenced Western Culture to such an extent that our modes of thinking about ourselves have developed in concert with Christian thought. A modernist, scientific approach to knowedge has practical value. The basis of this approach is the notion that we understand the whole by looking at the parts. We can disect cadavers to understand humans. Of course there's both truth and value in this approach. However, the religious approach is more holistic. We understand the parts (says the Christian) by looking at the whole (God). To the scientific mind this seems backwards, but even science has trended in this direction in the post-modern era.

Here's Walt Whitman's take (Whitman was a deist, but not a Christian):
When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:23 amHowever, the religious approach is more holistic.
I rather like a holistic approach without being observed through the distorted lens of religion.
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote: February 13th, 2021, 6:27 pm
I rather like a holistic approach without being observed through the distorted lens of religion.
Which lenses distort? The lenses of telescopes, for one.

All lenses distort, including the lenses of our own persepetions and preconceptions. I'm not religious, and I don't participate in the religious approach to seeking wisdom. But neither do I ridicule it. The great prophets and saints seem to have figured out something about wisdom, and merit, and the nature of goodness, however deluded their methods. I'd also suggest that the techniques of religion -- meditation, prayer, fasting, etc. -- are time-tested. The "spiritual" person who eschews organized religion misses out on techinques, theologies, and myths that have captured the imaginations and the obsessions of many who are wiser than I.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:54 pmThe "spiritual" person who eschews organized religion misses out on techinques, theologies, and myths that have captured the imaginations and the obsessions of many who are wiser than I.
Not necessarily. There's no law to stop one from taking the good ideas and ignore the culturally specific material, wild guesswork, manipulative tales and ancient politics.

This approach is very common. People aren't silly. After all, do you believe in demons, exorcisms, virgin births, resurrections and stoning adulterers. Do you approve of slavery? If not, you are doing roughly the same as me.

Bodies of knowledge are provisional, not divine. However, progress usually involves the loss of some beautiful things, just as maturity wipes out the sweet innocence of childhood, civilisation wipes out the balance of living within nature and extinctions wipe out beautiful and fascinating species. So, as we progress, we need not reflexively throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Tegularius
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:23 am
Here's Walt Whitman's take (Whitman was a deist, but not a Christian):
When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.
Unfortunately looking "up in perfect silence at the stars" tells one nothing of their history or what makes them tick. One studies the stars because one is in a steady-state of wonder about them. Even as stars have become less mysterious the rapture one feels observing them hasn't diminished especially on a cold, dark silent night removed from the polluting lights of the city.

In effect, the lecturing astronomer deserved more applause than Whitman looking up in perfect silence.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
popeye1945
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by popeye1945 »

I personally don't really believe that the way these desert religions are practiced, it can even be said to be spiritual. Isn't appreciation, rapture about life and being in the world the spiritual, spirituality is something naturally experienced, or not, in the above-stated institutions I believe they miss the boat entirely. Of course, this type of spirituality does not promise one immortality, or even twenty-seven virgins, maybe I'll reconsider--lol!!!
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

Tegularius wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:16 am

Unfortunately looking "up in perfect silence at the stars" tells one nothing of their history or what makes them tick. One studies the stars because one is in a steady-state of wonder about them. Even as stars have become less mysterious the rapture one feels observing them hasn't diminished especially on a cold, dark silent night removed from the polluting lights of the city.

In effect, the lecturing astronomer deserved more applause than Whitman looking up in perfect silence.
Stars tick? Who knew?

I have nothing against astronomy, although the charts and diagrams might bore me, as they did Whitman. Astronomers and poets are both writers. When they write about the stars, one writes "charts and diagrams", the other writes poems. If the poems are as good as Whitman's, they "deserve more applause" than even the most elucidating "charts and diagrams (in my opinion, of course)..
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote: February 14th, 2021, 12:19 am
Not necessarily. There's no law to stop one from taking the good ideas and ignore the culturally specific material, wild guesswork, manipulative tales and ancient politics.

This approach is very common. People aren't silly. After all, do you believe in demons, exorcisms, virgin births, resurrections and stoning adulterers. Do you approve of slavery? If not, you are doing roughly the same as me.

Bodies of knowledge are provisional, not divine. However, progress usually involves the loss of some beautiful things, just as maturity wipes out the sweet innocence of childhood, civilisation wipes out the balance of living within nature and extinctions wipe out beautiful and fascinating species. So, as we progress, we need not reflexively throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Even the most delicious steak (for non Vegans) contains bones and gristle which can be thrown in the trash. "Techniques" involve knowledge of how to practice, but they also involve the experiential knowledge that comes only from regular practice. Nobody can accuse the great Christian saints and mystics of lacking due diligence, and the obsession required for such diligence is a part of religion, for good and for ill (the flip side of the saints is Torquemada). I believe it was Malcolm Gladwell who thought anyone needs 10,000 hours of practice to master any craft.

I've never personally stoned any adulterers, but I've gotten stoned with a few.

The religious world view is that some forms of knowledge are NOT provisional. They are eternal. However much we learn about the stars (says the Christian), we cannot improve on "Love your neighbor as yourself".
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

popeye1945 wrote: February 14th, 2021, 7:51 am I personally don't really believe that the way these desert religions are practiced, it can even be said to be spiritual. Isn't appreciation, rapture about life and being in the world the spiritual, spirituality is something naturally experienced, or not, in the above-stated institutions I believe they miss the boat entirely. Of course, this type of spirituality does not promise one immortality, or even twenty-seven virgins, maybe I'll reconsider--lol!!!
It's not easy being spiritual (which is one reason I've never tried). I'll grant that the vast majority of Christians, Muslims and Jews aren't very good at it. I like reading about the exceptional ones, though.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: February 14th, 2021, 11:02 am
Greta wrote: February 14th, 2021, 12:19 am
Not necessarily. There's no law to stop one from taking the good ideas and ignore the culturally specific material, wild guesswork, manipulative tales and ancient politics.

This approach is very common. People aren't silly. After all, do you believe in demons, exorcisms, virgin births, resurrections and stoning adulterers. Do you approve of slavery? If not, you are doing roughly the same as me.

Bodies of knowledge are provisional, not divine. However, progress usually involves the loss of some beautiful things, just as maturity wipes out the sweet innocence of childhood, civilisation wipes out the balance of living within nature and extinctions wipe out beautiful and fascinating species. So, as we progress, we need not reflexively throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Even the most delicious steak (for non Vegans) contains bones and gristle which can be thrown in the trash. "Techniques" involve knowledge of how to practice, but they also involve the experiential knowledge that comes only from regular practice. Nobody can accuse the great Christian saints and mystics of lacking due diligence, and the obsession required for such diligence is a part of religion, for good and for ill (the flip side of the saints is Torquemada). I believe it was Malcolm Gladwell who thought anyone needs 10,000 hours of practice to master any craft.

I've never personally stoned any adulterers, but I've gotten stoned with a few.

The religious world view is that some forms of knowledge are NOT provisional. They are eternal. However much we learn about the stars (says the Christian), we cannot improve on "Love your neighbor as yourself".
The 10,000 hours idea does not work. Some musicians practice for far longer and never achieve mastery while there are young children who achieve extraordinary control and mastery after just a few years of playing. It's not just hours but the quality of the practice.

Thing is, Christians rarely practice "love thy neighbour" and, for the most part, they have been amongst the worst dividers of people. Nowadays Christians largely practice the "prosperity gospel", which considers the poor to be human garbage, deserving of their fate, while they see the rich as having earned their rewards (after all, it takes some skill, or at least good contacts, to avoid paying tax on millions of dollars of earnings).

In my experience, rather than "love thy neighbour", I see "hate your neighbour", "exploit your neighbour" and "who gives a damn about your neighbour". Sure, there's the occasional sincere theist or well-meaning humanist, but we are mostly still just competitive animals. For now ...
Tegularius
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: February 14th, 2021, 10:47 am
Tegularius wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:16 am

Unfortunately looking "up in perfect silence at the stars" tells one nothing of their history or what makes them tick. One studies the stars because one is in a steady-state of wonder about them. Even as stars have become less mysterious the rapture one feels observing them hasn't diminished especially on a cold, dark silent night removed from the polluting lights of the city.

In effect, the lecturing astronomer deserved more applause than Whitman looking up in perfect silence.
Stars tick? Who knew?

I have nothing against astronomy, although the charts and diagrams might bore me, as they did Whitman. Astronomers and poets are both writers. When they write about the stars, one writes "charts and diagrams", the other writes poems. If the poems are as good as Whitman's, they "deserve more applause" than even the most elucidating "charts and diagrams (in my opinion, of course)..
Of course you're entitled to your opinions as is everyone regardless of merit. For me Whitman is the most boring and least poetic of all the more famous poets I ever read and I read a lot. It begs the question, what did Whitman expect going to a lecture by an astronomer? An ode to the stars in rhyme or like his own freestyle verse which rambles all over the place?
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

Tegularius wrote: February 14th, 2021, 6:11 pm

Of course you're entitled to your opinions as is everyone regardless of merit. For me Whitman is the most boring and least poetic of all the more famous poets I ever read and I read a lot. It begs the question, what did Whitman expect going to a lecture by an astronomer? An ode to the stars in rhyme or like his own freestyle verse which rambles all over the place?
To each his own. I consider Whitman to be the greatest American poet (only Emily Dickinson comes close). He revolutionized poetry. Harold Bloom concurs, as does Algernon Swinburne, who begged Whitman to:

Send but a song oversea for us,
Heart of their hearts who are free,
Heart of their singer, to be for us
More than our singing can be;
Ours, in the tempest at error,
With no light but the twilight of terror;
Send us a song oversea!
The notion that Whitman should have avoided attending precisely that lecture which inspired ""Learned Astronomer" is heretical to poetry lovers everywhere.
Ecurb
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote: February 14th, 2021, 3:21 pm

The 10,000 hours idea does not work. Some musicians practice for far longer and never achieve mastery while there are young children who achieve extraordinary control and mastery after just a few years of playing. It's not just hours but the quality of the practice.

Thing is, Christians rarely practice "love thy neighbour" and, for the most part, they have been amongst the worst dividers of people. Nowadays Christians largely practice the "prosperity gospel", which considers the poor to be human garbage, deserving of their fate, while they see the rich as having earned their rewards (after all, it takes some skill, or at least good contacts, to avoid paying tax on millions of dollars of earnings).

In my experience, rather than "love thy neighbour", I see "hate your neighbour", "exploit your neighbour" and "who gives a damn about your neighbour". Sure, there's the occasional sincere theist or well-meaning humanist, but we are mostly still just competitive animals. For now ...
I think Gladwell meant that proficiency requires 10,000 hours of training, not that the training guarantees proficiency. (I have no opinion as to whether he is right.)

You seem to be an orthodox Christian yourself, Greta, with your notion that humans are sinners. "For there is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans)
Tegularius
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: February 14th, 2021, 8:27 pm
Tegularius wrote: February 14th, 2021, 6:11 pm

Of course you're entitled to your opinions as is everyone regardless of merit. For me Whitman is the most boring and least poetic of all the more famous poets I ever read and I read a lot. It begs the question, what did Whitman expect going to a lecture by an astronomer? An ode to the stars in rhyme or like his own freestyle verse which rambles all over the place?
To each his own. I consider Whitman to be the greatest American poet (only Emily Dickinson comes close). He revolutionized poetry. Harold Bloom concurs, as does Algernon Swinburne, who begged Whitman to:

Send but a song oversea for us,
Heart of their hearts who are free,
Heart of their singer, to be for us
More than our singing can be;
Ours, in the tempest at error,
With no light but the twilight of terror;
Send us a song oversea!
The notion that Whitman should have avoided attending precisely that lecture which inspired ""Learned Astronomer" is heretical to poetry lovers everywhere.
As you say to each his own. Emily Dickinson is the one I would choose as the greatest American poet. As for the late Mr. Bloom, I have very little respect for him as a critic. From what I've read by others who have in turn critiqued Bloom, I'm not alone in this. I think it's more often what Whitman said than how he said it that turns people on.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Sy Borg
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Re: What are the Gods of man?

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: February 14th, 2021, 8:31 pm
Greta wrote: February 14th, 2021, 3:21 pm

The 10,000 hours idea does not work. Some musicians practice for far longer and never achieve mastery while there are young children who achieve extraordinary control and mastery after just a few years of playing. It's not just hours but the quality of the practice.

Thing is, Christians rarely practice "love thy neighbour" and, for the most part, they have been amongst the worst dividers of people. Nowadays Christians largely practice the "prosperity gospel", which considers the poor to be human garbage, deserving of their fate, while they see the rich as having earned their rewards (after all, it takes some skill, or at least good contacts, to avoid paying tax on millions of dollars of earnings).

In my experience, rather than "love thy neighbour", I see "hate your neighbour", "exploit your neighbour" and "who gives a damn about your neighbour". Sure, there's the occasional sincere theist or well-meaning humanist, but we are mostly still just competitive animals. For now ...
I think Gladwell meant that proficiency requires 10,000 hours of training, not that the training guarantees proficiency. (I have no opinion as to whether he is right.)

You seem to be an orthodox Christian yourself, Greta, with your notion that humans are sinners. "For there is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans)
I suppose I might have qualified as a Christian up to age nine, when I figured it wasn't true.

I don't think humans and other animals are quite capable of righteousness, although I expect that some come close. The fact is that, like any other animal, we have to kill and exploit other species to survive. And you can't love your neighbour as you love yourself of you'd give them half your money and resources. You can care about them to some extent, but there are limits, as we will find out if enough people have trouble finding enough to eat.

If some people manage to transcend biology, or at least those biological imperatives, then perhaps they can be more selfless but I'm not holding my breath.
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