Are Transwomen Women?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Locked
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

I know this topic is an ethical and political minefield, and the "transgenderist" thought police will demonize me just for daring to ask this question:

Are transwomen women?

(Are transmen men? – What I write can correspondingly be applied to transmen, but for the sake of simplicity I'll be talking about transwomen only.)

The Wikipedia entry begins with the following definition:

"A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman

This definition implies that there was a misassignement at birth because the person was in fact born as a girl rather than as a boy. But if that's true, how could such a terrible mistake happen? Were the parents and the doctors in the hospital or the midwife just too blind or stupid to see that what they perceived as a baby boy was in fact a baby girl? Of course, they weren't! For it is simply a conceptual perversion to call a baby who is unambiguously male with regard to anatomy, endocrinology (relating to hormones) and genetics a girl. Therefore, it is simply false to assert that transwomen were born as girls. In fact, they were born as boys.

Moreover, the very term "transwoman" is a misnomer insofar as it is used to refer to a male-to-female transsexual person, who is actually a "transman", i.e. a male transsexual, a transsexual man, a transsexual person born as a boy.
Therefore, so-called transwomen are not women, because they are transsexual boys/men and no girl/woman is a transsexual boy/woman.

Another simple reason is that all transwomen are genetically male, whereas no woman is genetically male.

What do you think of this argument?
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

I know it's part of transgenderist ideology that biological criteria are totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not somebody is a woman or female/a man or male. So the transgenderists will sweepingly reject my argument as illegitimately biologistic. But it's certainly absurd to deny the relevance of biological criteria.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: May 31st, 2018, 12:31 pmTherefore, so-called transwomen are not women, because they are transsexual boys/men and no girl/woman is a transsexual boy/woman.
Another simple reason is that all transwomen are genetically male, whereas no woman is genetically male.
A genetically male, yet anatomically and hormonally feminized transwoman could be called a "womanoid", but I suspect that the TS community loathes this term.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

To avoid a possible misunderstanding: I'm not a bit anti-TS or "transphobic"! What I write here by no means implies that transsexuals shouldn't have the right to live their lives the way they want to live it, that they shouldn't have the right to medical and psychological support, that they shouldn't be legally protected from harm and violence, that they shouldn't be socially tolerated and accepted as transsexuals.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Name Is Unnecessary
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: May 19th, 2018, 9:32 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Name Is Unnecessary »

There are genetic, cerebral, biological and blah-blah other gender criteria. Genetically gender is male, but cerebrally it is female for example. This is actually a high school material and I can tell, because I learnt it in high school.

I see you are coming from the genetic criteria, but as it turns out genes matter least, seemingly less than raising environment and even personality forming.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Name Is Unnecessary wrote: May 31st, 2018, 3:06 pm There are genetic, cerebral, biological and blah-blah other gender criteria. Genetically gender is male, but cerebrally it is female for example. This is actually a high school material and I can tell, because I learnt it in high school.
I see you are coming from the genetic criteria, but as it turns out genes matter least, seemingly less than raising environment and even personality forming.
I'm not a scientist myself, but there doesn't seem to be any substantial scientific confirmation of the argument that transwomen are women because they have "female brains". (Is there any scientifically well-defined concept of a '"female brain" at all which doesn't simply mean "brain of a genetically female organism"?)
See e.g. this scientific paper:

"The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized.

The present study does not support the dogma that MtF-TR have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain[.]"


Sex Dimorphism of the Brain in Male-to-Female Transsexuals
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Alias »

Your need to categorize people, definitively and absolutely, is not about them; it's about you.
As far as other people are concerned, call them whatever they want to be called. If uncertain, ask "How do you prefer to be addressed?"
As far as your perception is concerned, you may have to conduct an investigation of what it is you need to know and why you need to know it.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Alias wrote: June 1st, 2018, 1:04 amYour need to categorize people, definitively and absolutely, is not about them; it's about you.
Yes, it is "about them", since the point at issue is precisely their assertion that transwomen are "definitely and absolutely" women.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't categorize or classify intersexuals as either male or female; but transsexuals aren't intersexuals.
Alias wrote: June 1st, 2018, 1:04 amAs far as other people are concerned, call them whatever they want to be called.
Would you call me a dog if I wanted to be called so?

When somebody believes and asserts that s/he is an X, it certainly doesn't follow that s/he really is an X.
Alias wrote: June 1st, 2018, 1:04 amIf uncertain, ask "How do you prefer to be addressed?"
As far as your perception is concerned, you may have to conduct an investigation of what it is you need to know and why you need to know it.
I have no problem with treating a transwoman like a woman and referring to the person as she/her, but this doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so because I think that the person really is a woman.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk »

Firstly there is genetic ambiguity. Both in outward physical appearance, chromosomes, chemically and so on. Sometimes the doctor simply can't know what sex a new born baby is. See Olympic sports classification for an introduction to the difficulties.
Whether or not there is such a thing as a male or female brain is an interesting question. Certainly you cannot remove a brain and afterwards work out what sex it is. But as I understand it the problem may not be to do with a real difference in male and female brains but more to do with bell curves of overlapping traits. For example if I said X person is six foot tall you might say X is likely male but you certainly couldn't be definitive.
Then you have the problem of defining gender. Again gender is ambiguous, the more closely you try to categorise the more precise will be the ambiguity. This is a common problem. For example is Pluto a planet.
But there are more straightforward cases where someone is clearly male but wants to be female. These cases possibly outnumber the ambiguous cases, I don't know.
At the end of the day life is complex. Personally I don't go around thinking I am a man. I tend to just think I am me. If someone uses the term man to me in a negative sense then that is their problem. If society demands I act in a manner which I don't wish then that is societies problem. But then I am quite independent and don't much care about outward appearance. I'm lucky I guess.
I think the single best thing you could do consul would be to spend time with a transwoman. Become friends. I suspect there are many many stories to be told.
Oh and lastly some people are plain self harming and or exploiting situations for their own end and or bad people. That applies to transwomen as much as anyone else. But in those cases don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Unknown means unknown.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Consul wrote: June 1st, 2018, 1:49 am Would you call me a dog if I wanted to be called so?
When somebody believes and asserts that s/he is an X, it certainly doesn't follow that s/he really is an X.
I have no problem with treating a transwoman like a woman and referring to the person as she/her, but this doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so because I think that the person really is a woman.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Consul, sorry about that. I hit post too soon.
Consul wrote: ↑Today, 6:49 am
Would you call me a dog if I wanted to be called so?
Sure, I would. And perhaps you are not aware of the phenomenon Furry Culture. Google and youtube that. LOL. But I hear you. Me, I am pretty flexible, so if someone wanted to be called a dog, it wouldn't matter much to me. I suppose we are really talking about in 3rd party situations. Would I refer to you as a dog when describing you to others. Oh, you know, Consul, about 40, he's a fairly big dog, fit, no paunch...etc.
No. I mean, if you were not dressing up like a dog, I probably would not.
With a transexual who was regularly in woman mode, lived as a women, it becomes easier. I would I think - it hasn't really come up - refer to her as a woman, and this would descriptively work, if not perfectly perhaps, as a descriptor.
I mean, perhaps some people are not really the sex they seem to be and passing on the wrong information. Or someone is actually a hermaphodite - in fact this at some time or other was probably likely - and I mentioned them as a man or woman and was wrong but effective and honest in my communication.
When somebody believes and asserts that s/he is an X, it certainly doesn't follow that s/he really is an X.
No. And we likely need to look at what might end up being sexist in such determinations. I am a woman because....and these qualites and patterns could be ones that men have, and vice versa.
I have no problem with treating a transwoman like a woman and referring to the person as she/her, but this doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so because I think that the person really is a woman.
It sounds to me that this will meet most ethical demands of most parties. The ontological issue is something that, it seems to me, should be respected in both ways. They get to believe there is this possibility you consider ontologically impossible. You let them have that belief and treat them as they would like to be treated. They, in turn, it seems to me, should respect your right to have, inside you and in abstract discussions, your right to believe the ontology you believe in.

Diversity should be conceived as not just appearance related or behavior related but also in terms of paradigm.

You and I have likely quite different views on a lot of paradigmatic issues, but the ironic thing for me is the area you are pushing on is one I have also pushed on recently.

I was with someone who believed very much in science, was a materialist/physicalist AND yet very much supported transsexuals not just as you do - in terms of speech, interactions and generalized respect - but also ontologically.

I pointed out that a physicalist cannot believe that a male body can be a woman. The body is the person. There is nothing that would make a male body a woman, unless there are very subtle physical portions of that body that we have not discovered yet via scientific investigation. One need not be a dualist to believe there is that possibility, but one is definitely assuming that something very important has not yet been discovered about human bodies that makes them potentially the opposite sex than the rest. And this undiscovered something is in fact more importent for gender identity that, say, the penis, testicles, lack of ovaries and so on. It is a very speculative physicalism. She did not like me bringing this up.

Now for me this was a jab at someone who was skeptical of something I believed it that was also not currently accepted by mainstream science. IOW something you would likely also have not believed in.

So I agree, I think that working from science and our knowledge of bodies, to consider that a transsexual is actually the chosen sex and not the birth sex, is either a very speculative physicalism with NO current scientific support OR a claim about dualism: it is, for example, a female soul, trapped in a male body.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Alias »

Consul wrote: June 1st, 2018, 1:49 am Yes, it is "about them", since the point at issue is precisely their assertion that transwomen are "definitely and absolutely" women.
Then that is what they are. Simple. What's the "issue"?
As far as I'm concerned, I don't categorize or classify intersexuals as either male or female; but transsexuals aren't intersexuals.
But they're still people, yes?
Would you call me a dog if I wanted to be called so?
Sure. Or Mork or Duke or The Birdman of Alcatraz - whatever you makes you happy.
When somebody believes and asserts that s/he is an X, it certainly doesn't follow that s/he really is an X.
Regarding the national economy, or the commission of a crime, or the the center of the universe, no.
Regarding their own identity - well, who knows better?
I have no problem with treating a transwoman like a woman and referring to the person as she/her,
You're willing to show courtesy. So - on the face of it - no problem.
but this doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so because I think that the person really is a woman.
Your private thoughts and motives are nobody's business but your own.
Yet, you've put them out here for other people to contemplate, so they must still be causing you some discomfort.
Name Is Unnecessary
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: May 19th, 2018, 9:32 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Name Is Unnecessary »

I'm not a scientist myself, but there doesn't seem to be any substantial scientific confirmation of the argument that transwomen are women because they have "female brains".
Maybe I should discuss the scientific arguments on this, but I will answer only in regard to my post. By writing "genetically male" and "cerebrally female" I make distinction between the criteria - I don't look at sex as a homogeneous thing, because it apparently consists of different elements (genes, hormone affection and others). And with the last sentence ("but as it turns out genes matter least, seemingly less than raising environment and even personality forming.") from my other post I pointed that although something is formally A, it could be practically regarded as B. Yes, by all measuring it could be exactly A, but in practice it mostly manifests as B. I live in the same country I was born and where my parents, and their parents, and their parents and so on were also born. But as I look around, the only I have in common with the others is that we are born in the same country. I am genetically one of them, but practically I am not.

Consul replied to Alias:
it is "about them", since the point at issue is precisely their assertion that transwomen are "definitely and absolutely" women.
I will talk only for my own. I won't say they are definite and absolute women. Since you started this thread, you must have heard the phrase "male/female in female/male body". It may look like those people are making themselves look like victims and feel the suffery pleasure from that, but I still think this phrase is accurate - you yourself said transwomen are "anatomically and hormonally feminized" males. So the essence here is mostly the same as in the previous answer.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Eduk wrote: June 1st, 2018, 3:09 amFirstly there is genetic ambiguity. Both in outward physical appearance, chromosomes, chemically and so on. Sometimes the doctor simply can't know what sex a new born baby is. See Olympic sports classification for an introduction to the difficulties.
As I said, I'm not talking about intersexuals but about transsexuals.
Eduk wrote: June 1st, 2018, 3:09 amAgain gender is ambiguous, the more closely you try to categorise the more precise will be the ambiguity. This is a common problem. For example is Pluto a planet.
Now it's officially a dwarf planet, with dwarf planets not being planets. (Many physicists reject the new classification, and nonscientists wonder why dwarf planets aren't planets when e.g. dwarf horses are horses.)
Eduk wrote: June 1st, 2018, 3:09 amAt the end of the day life is complex.
Personal and particularly sexual identity (in the psychological sense) is a complex issue indeed.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Eduk wrote: June 1st, 2018, 3:09 amThen you have the problem of defining gender.
"gender n. 1. Non-technically, a synonym for sex (1). More specifically, especially in feminist psychology, the behavioural, social, and cultural attributes associated with sex."

"sex n. 1. Either of the categories of male and female or the sum total of biological attributes on which this distinction is based within a species."

(Colman, Andrew M. Oxford Dictionary of Psychology. 4th ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2015. pp. 306+690)

"Gender, Sociology of. According to Ann Oakley, who introduced the term to sociology, "'Sex' refers to the biological division into male and female; 'gender' to the parallel and socially unequal division into femininity and masculinity' (see Sex, Gender and Society, 1972). Gender draws attention, therefore, to the socially constructed aspects of differences between women and men. But the term 'gender' has since become extended to refer not only to individual identity and personality but also, at the symbolic level, to cultural ideals and stereotypes of masculinity and femininity and, at the structural level, to the sexual division of labour in institutions and organizations."

(Scott, John, and Gordon Marshall. Oxford Dictionary of Sociology. 3rd ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. p. 276)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Locked

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021