The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

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Steve3007
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The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Steve3007 »

US President Trump's accusation against Google News' search algorithm of being biased against him highlights the new importance for the general population to better understand what can be achieved by a computer following an algorithmic process and what requires human understanding. Articles like this:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7131723/p ... eral-left/

(which was served to me by Google News as a result of my geographical location and the search term "Trump") seem to me to betray a basic misunderstanding of what computers processing data without human intervention can and cannot do, at present. They are good for statistical analysis of large quantities of data (such things as statistical correlations between search terms and links between web pages) but it is massively more difficult to create an algorithm which would read a piece of journalism and accurately assess the political leanings of the author. To understand what the words mean, to read between the lines, to understand context, culture, irony etc currently still requires the human brain's extraordinary ability to take its life experience and use it to genuinely understand and synthesise new insights, rather than just crunching data. With computers, it's still essentially "garbage in, garbage out". The algorithms reflect what is collectively important to the human beings that use them.

The article cited above says: "Try 'Brexit is . . . ' and Google will suggest 'over', 'a disaster', 'dead'". This is not because these negative terms for Brexit are somehow hard-coded into the algorithm by politically biased programmers. They simply reflect what people have said in the past.

So, in this algorithmic search engine dominated world, is an understanding of what computers can and cannot do a basic educational requirement of informed citizenship?
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 30th, 2018, 4:53 am US President Trump's accusation against Google News' search algorithm of being biased against him highlights the new importance for the general population to better understand what can be achieved by a computer following an algorithmic process and what requires human understanding. Articles like this:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7131723/p ... eral-left/

(which was served to me by Google News as a result of my geographical location and the search term "Trump") seem to me to betray a basic misunderstanding of what computers processing data without human intervention can and cannot do, at present. They are good for statistical analysis of large quantities of data (such things as statistical correlations between search terms and links between web pages) but it is massively more difficult to create an algorithm which would read a piece of journalism and accurately assess the political leanings of the author. To understand what the words mean, to read between the lines, to understand context, culture, irony etc currently still requires the human brain's extraordinary ability to take its life experience and use it to genuinely understand and synthesise new insights, rather than just crunching data. With computers, it's still essentially "garbage in, garbage out". The algorithms reflect what is collectively important to the human beings that use them.

The article cited above says: "Try 'Brexit is . . . ' and Google will suggest 'over', 'a disaster', 'dead'". This is not because these negative terms for Brexit are somehow hard-coded into the algorithm by politically biased programmers. They simply reflect what people have said in the past.

So, in this algorithmic search engine dominated world, is an understanding of what computers can and cannot do a basic educational requirement of informed citizenship?
If you want to talk about informed citizens then do not shame yourself by quoting The Sun - the most right wing biased paper since "Hitler Today"
Steve3007
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Steve3007 »

A little update:

The article which I cited above claimed:

"Try 'Brexit is . . . ' and Google will suggest 'over', 'a disaster', 'dead"

It's right. Those suggestions do indeed come up. But if you look at the reason why "over" comes up by looking at the way in which that word is actually used in most of the web pages that were found, you'll find it's not used in the sense of "finished". It's used in the sense of "above". This is a simple and obvious example of the algorithm's lack of ability to understand content and therefore its lack of ability to judge the intended meaning of sentences. It simply blindly crunches words.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 30th, 2018, 5:09 am A little update:

The article which I cited above claimed:

"Try 'Brexit is . . . ' and Google will suggest 'over', 'a disaster', 'dead"

It's right. Those suggestions do indeed come up. But if you look at the reason why "over" comes up by looking at the way in which that word is actually used in most of the web pages that were found, you'll find it's not used in the sense of "finished". It's used in the sense of "above". This is a simple and obvious example of the algorithm's lack of ability to understand content and therefore its lack of ability to judge the intended meaning of sentences. It simply blindly crunches words.
Do you know how the Google algorithm works?
As far as I know it simply reads the most common following words and lists them.

When I Google Brexit I get;"
News
Latest
Date
Vote

Try Brexix Suc...


There are other more sophisticated algorithms within Facebook for example, which can specifically target individuals who, say, follow Corbyn, and hit them with articles on antisemitism.
Steve3007
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Steve3007 »

In the mass of textual data which constitutes the UK-focused online news right now, the strings "corbyn", and "antisemitism" are strongly correlated. This statistical fact can be found by a computer algorithm without it having to know what those strings refer to, what a "corbyn" is, what a person is, what a politician is, what an anti-semite is or what the history of the state of Israel is. Garbage in. Garbage out.

I don't know the details of how the Facebook algorithm works, but I do know that if I were to write a simple algorithm which trawls the internet looking for word correlations and then use it to search for "antisemitism" it would show me articles about Corbyn. That doesn't make the algorithm anti-Corbyn.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 30th, 2018, 5:44 am In the mass of textual data which constitutes the UK-focused online news right now, the strings "corbyn", and "antisemitism" are strongly correlated. This statistical fact can be found by a computer algorithm without it having to know what those strings refer to, what a "corbyn" is, what a person is, what a politician is, what an anti-semite is or what the history of the state of Israel is. Garbage in. Garbage out.

I don't know the details of how the Facebook algorithm works, but I do know that if I were to write a simple algorithm which trawls the internet looking for word correlations and then use it to search for "antisemitism" it would show me articles about Corbyn. That doesn't make the algorithm anti-Corbyn.
Yes, but when a person with that algorithm can identify a group who supports Labour, "Corbyn", etc, on FB they are able to flood the side panel with antisemitic articles; with news on antisemitism; and use fake IDs to flood related groups with posts about it.
In this way programs are being used to keep a dead issue alive.
It's people behind the machine that are mobilising for political ends.

Cambridge Analytica have teams of people doing just that.
Steve3007
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Steve3007 »

Yes, and this links to the other topic which started about the morality of squashing bugs and evolved into a discussion about (among other things) the re-enforcement of paths in rivers, road systems, ant colonies and brains.

In showing us the current search term correlations, the algorithm enables us to strengthen those correlations. It therefore develops and even strong tendency to show them. And so the cycle continues.
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Burning ghost
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Burning ghost »

Like any data analysis the context is deadly important.

Often the borader the data set the more easily interpreted it is. Whilst on the otherhand the narrower the search may be misleading for teh opposite reason. This is then magnified by basic human biases. The best we can do is stop ourselves short of reaching some “ultimate conclusion” and actively seek out counter evidence.

When it comes to the endless number of topics available the best we can hope for in some instances is to look at expert opinions - and obvously there is some degree of risk in doing so yet risk is necessary if we’re to come to understand anything better; so be prepared to be wrong and accept that you’re wrong (likely more often than your frail ego likes!)

Or just die complaining ;)
AKA badgerjelly
Fooloso4
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Fooloso4 »

Steve3007:
So, in this algorithmic search engine dominated world, is an understanding of what computers can and cannot do a basic educational requirement of informed citizenship?
If your goal is propaganda, which I think is clearly Trump’s goal, then the less you know the better. If one had a proper understanding of such things how could they be convinced that there is a concerted effort or a conspiracy to suppress the views of those who favor Trump and/or the extreme right? They have no interest in informed citizenship; their goal is misinformed citizenship.

Truth runs second to perception. No doubt liberals at Google intent on fairness and inclusiveness, together with pressure from conservative employees claiming unfair liberal bias in the corporate culture, will cave in and algorithms will be altered so that the views from the right will be made more prominent. This will not require a more nuanced assessment of the content of articles. It will be a blunt instrument that searches for favorable phrases. Or course clever writers will know how to get around it and even use it to their own advantage.

It is a campaign by the extreme right to manipulate and control speech and information under the guise of freedom of speech and information. Alex Jones got it right - it is info wars.I do not think it is a coincidence that Trump appointed DeVos as head of the department of education. The privatization of education means that the teaching of ‘politically correct” views, and in this case politically correct means right wing, anti-government views, can go unchallenged. The circle closed.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 30th, 2018, 5:44 am In the mass of textual data which constitutes the UK-focused online news right now, the strings "corbyn", and "antisemitism" are strongly correlated. This statistical fact can be found by a computer algorithm without it having to know what those strings refer to, what a "corbyn" is, what a person is, what a politician is, what an anti-semite is or what the history of the state of Israel is. Garbage in. Garbage out.
You already said that. It is a no brainer. All computer programmes are like that. SO what?
Steve3007
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Steve3007 »

ThomasHobbes wrote:You already said that...
You already responded to this post.
Fooloso4 wrote:...They have no interest in informed citizenship; their goal is misinformed citizenship. Truth runs second to perception...
Yes, but in the case of Trump I can't help feeling that when he tweets something like this:
I just cannot state strongly enough how totally dishonest much of the Media is. Truth doesn’t matter to them, they only have their hatred & agenda. This includes fake books, which come out about me all the time, always anonymous sources, and are pure fiction. Enemy of the People!
he really doesn't have his tongue in his cheek or recognize the hypocrisy and cynicism of it. Despite any number of simple, straightforward, factual records of the number of lies he himself tells on a daily basis I think, in his own mind, he honestly doesn't see it as lying when he does it. Similar to the way that he can cite anonymous sources for one of his conspiracy theories while simultaneously condemning the use of anonymous sources. It's one of the things that, psychologically, makes him such an interesting character. He must just be genuinely very good at Doublethink; at keeping two mutually contradictory accounts of the world in his head at the same time and really believing both of them. Not just pretending to. I think that's why, to his supporters, he comes across as honest.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 31st, 2018, 10:11 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:You already said that...
You already responded to this post.
Oh dear, my algorithm got stuck in an infinite loop.
Fooloso4
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Fooloso4 »

Steve3007:
Yes, but in the case of Trump I can't help feeling that when he tweets something like this:
I just cannot state strongly enough how totally dishonest much of the Media is. Truth doesn’t matter to them, they only have their hatred & agenda. This includes fake books, which come out about me all the time, always anonymous sources, and are pure fiction. Enemy of the People!
he really doesn't have his tongue in his cheek or recognize the hypocrisy and cynicism of it.
Roy Cohn was Trump’s mentor. This sums it up succinctly what Trump learned from him:
For author Sam Roberts, the essence of Cohn’s influence on Trump was the triad: “Roy was a master of situational immorality . . . . He worked with a three-dimensional strategy, which was: 1. Never settle, never surrender. 2. Counter-attack, counter-sue immediately. 3. No matter what happens, no matter how deeply into the muck you get, claim victory and never admit defeat.” (taken from https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06 ... lationship)
Trump’s counter-attack includes accusing others of what he has been accused of. But I do not think that he is always so calculating. He is a compulsive liar and one never knows whether the compulsive liar knows he is lying. I also think that there is an element of projection, seeing one’s faults in others but not in yourself.
I think that's why, to his supporters, he comes across as honest.
I suspect that it may be because Trump says what they think and they know that what they think is not always socially acceptable. I’m not sure that honesty even matters though. In response to questions about his lying they often say: “All politician lie”. Some of his defenders even say: “Don’t pay attention to what he says but to what he does”. As to what he does, he said it best: "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
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Sy Borg
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Sy Borg »

Just Trump trying to game another system. Of course an aggregating system will prioritise the most common articles. If those articles are more critical of the US's seemingly unaccountable authoritarian POTUS than praising, then that theoretically reflects the feed emphasis.

If anything, Murdoch's multifarious hardline rightwing publications get more airing than they deserve because each News Ltd and Fox outlet is treated as though it's a discrete entity rather than being one of many parts speaking with one voice.

This was especially apparent to me during the Turnbull/Dutton/Morrison spill in Australia. Every day there would appear to be this conflagration of media outlets slamming Turnbull, yet closer inspection would sometimes show them all to Murdoch's polemic instruments. Much of the effect was, in fact, simply in the featured headlines too. It looked like a furore. Much of the time the article headers were just feeders to a subscription page anyway, but the headlines achieved the desired effect.

THAT is the real algorithm flaw, where Murdoch's outlets are effectively acting as parasites on Google News.
Fooloso4
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Re: The new importance of understanding what algorithms can and can't do

Post by Fooloso4 »

Greta:
… yet closer inspection would sometimes show them all to Murdoch's polemic instruments.
In the states Sinclair Broadcasting has written statements and prepared segments that all their affiliates must air. It appears as though these are coming from the local TV station. John Oliver did a great segment on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvtNyOzGogc
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