Free will does not exist (Beware)

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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Burning ghost wrote:It is quite a simple logical sequence. If you’re wrong you’ve been a passenger to your own laziness. If I’m wrong it makes no difference. Morally speaking the logical way to live is as if you have free will.
...a variation of Pascal's Wager?

The problem with this approach is the abandonment of finding 'real' truth in favor of finding "feel-goodness". Should I continue believing in Santa Claus, so as to maintain the feel-goodness of this belief?

The search for truth is not about satisfying or justifying feel-goodness, it is about finding 'real truths' (good, bad, or ugly!).

Djacob7 wrote:It's entirely possible that, even though free will doesn't exist, we can pretend that it does.
Burning ghost wrote:This is what gets me. It is the absolutism of the position. You cannot know that it doesn’t exist.
To the contrary, the logic is very clear and irrefutable of the impossibility of free-will. It is the psychological acceptance of this logical truth that most struggle with.

Burning ghost wrote:If you hold to the idea that free will doesn’t exist (as in making choices in life) then it simply leaning toward fatalism of some kind, nihilism and shifting toward a life where what you do and say doesn’t matter or make a difference. It is vacuous to live such a life - or rather such a “life” is not a life at all, it is to live denying your own limit choices in your own life.
Firstly, in essence you are saying here, life without free-will would be very ugly, so we should continue to falsely believe in free-will. E.g. life without Santa Claus would be very ugly, so we should continue to falsely believe in Santa Claus.

Secondly, ugliness is not a determiner of truth.

Thirdly, your fear of a reality without free-will is overplayed (though admittedly maybe a bit more 'initially' traumatic than finding out about no Santa Claus).

The ultimate satisfaction of knowing the 'real' truth is much more palatable than living in a delusional fantasy. And again, life without free-will is not as bad/ugly/fearful as you portray it above.

Burning ghost wrote:As a simple hypothetical take this one ... you can save a million children by assuming free will exists or let them die in agony. Or you can save a million children by assuming free will doesn’t exist or let them die in agony.

If you act like you have free will then the choice is easy in both cases.
The flaw in this hypothetical analogy is assuming that we would "act differently" in one case over the other.

Our actions would be the same in both cases. If we possess compassion for saving a million children we would save them, in both cases. It is the compassion (internal desires) that make us do as we do, ...not free-will, or the lack of free-will.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

RJG wrote: January 30th, 2019, 8:58 am The problem with this approach is the abandonment of finding 'real' truth in favor of finding "feel-goodness". Should I continue believing in Santa Claus, so as to maintain the feel-goodness of this belief?
Perhaps. If feel-goodness is important in life (to you, to others) then it can be factored in to deciding what would be good to believe. Especially if one cannot demonstrate that the gains of knowing the truth, in this case determinism, make life better.
The search for truth is not about satisfying or justifying feel-goodness, it is about finding 'real truths' (good, bad, or ugly!).
That's pretty tautological.
To the contrary, the logic is very clear and irrefutable of the impossibility of free-will. It is the psychological acceptance of this logical truth that most struggle with.
And then perhaps with good reason. Perhaps not. But it's worth considering.

Unlike believing in Santa Claus - where we have a lot of data about, for example, people from other cultures who do not believe in Santa Claus managing the feel good about life, it is much trickier with free will and determinism. Certainly there are people who believe in determinism and thrive, but likely most of the time they are as immersed in the qualia of having a free will as anyone else, only facing this potentially unpleasant truth or idea when discussing the idea. We don't really know the effects of a societal shift from belief in free will to belief in determinism. The fact that people find it unpleasant may or may not indicate that there would be a significant loss is feeling good - we sometimes dislike things that do, in the long term increase our sense of well being and even our well being. On the other hand our resistance is often grounded in the health of the organism.

Hard to say how the idea that the future was determined in the Big Bang would do to people. Perhaps a sense of futility would make life less pleasant overall. These things are very hard to track, measure, predict. Yes, one can make arguments as to how one 'still gets to choose' and the lack of free will does not mean 'one should not struggle for what one wants' etc. But the brute fact might undermine us anyway. (assuming it is a fact)

I have a similar reaction to the much more weakly philosophically grounded idea that we are 'chemical machines'. I think this is causing all sorts of problems, and also fits the agendas of pharmacological companies who like us to think of our suffering as 'chemical imbalances' as if we were solipsistic broken machines.

This is not a fair comparisom in the sense that a really clear set of arguments can be made to make the chemical machine, pathologizing of individual sufferers look as silly as it is when it tries to be the complete or even a useful picture. While demonstrating free will is the case or determinism is false is not something I have even seen done. (I personally black box the issue, in part because if determinism is the case we can never really know if we believe in it because of solid evidence and arguments or qualia. ´)

But I think it is spot on in raising the idea that there are an incredibly array of side effects when paradigmatic ideas seep through a society. And sure, they could be rather negative with determinism.

My guess is that they are, though it is sure hard to set up some double blind experiment to see what the psychological cost benefits are.

Secondly, ugliness is not a determiner of truth.
It seems to me his knowing this is implicit in his posts. It seems implicit in his saying that even if it is true it would still be better for us not to believe it.
Thirdly, your fear of a reality without free-will is overplayed (though admittedly maybe a bit more 'initially' traumatic than finding out about no Santa Claus).
And tmhat's your intuitive guess as to the effects. Which is fine. I just made mine. But it seems like you are focusing on the transition moment, and that's just a tiny part of the aftereffects and ones that would be very hard to track and measure.

The ultimate satisfaction of knowing the 'real' truth is much more palatable than living in a delusional fantasy.
How would you know that?

What if one of your fantasies is that you actually believe in deteminism most of the time or deeply?
How do you know your pleasures right now in life are not depenedent on delusions?
On what basis are you universalizing this even if you happen to be correct about yourself?

Introspection about what you feel like when you are thinking about the issue and what it was like for you giving up the idea of free will
depends on your ability to introspect and your correctness in evaluating the effects of your belief on you
the idea that you actually do not immerse yourself most of the time in free will qualia
the universalizing of your reactions
the ignoring of all the much harder to track effects that are hard to track, not only with introspection, but in sociological studies
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

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RJG wrote:The problem with this approach is the abandonment of finding 'real' truth in favor of finding "feel-goodness". Should I then continue believing in Santa Claus, so as to maintain the feel-goodness of this belief?
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Perhaps. If feel-goodness is important in life (to you, to others) then it can be factored in to deciding what would be good to believe. Especially if one cannot demonstrate that the gains of knowing the truth, in this case determinism, make life better.
"Make life better"??? ...so is the goal here to "make life better" or is it to find 'real' truths? If the goal is to find "feel-goodness" (or "make life better"), then I would suggest joining a different forum, such as a religion forum, or another type. Otherwise we would be 'contaminating' philosophy with religion.

Religion --- is for those searching for "feel-goodness"; "feel-good" phony truths.
Philosophy --- is for those searching for the 'real' truths (good, bad, or ugly!).

RJG wrote:To the contrary, the logic is very clear and irrefutable of the impossibility of free-will. It is the psychological acceptance of this logical truth that most struggle with.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:And then perhaps with good reason. Perhaps not. But it's worth considering.
If we can't accept logical truths as truths, then we are not serious about finding truths. We are instead, just looking for justifications to support our feel-good (make believe) truths.
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

The problem with this approach is the abandonment of finding 'real' truth in favor of finding "feel-goodness".
You can't decide to abandon anything (if there is no free will). But then you can't decide not to chastise someone for deciding to do something so it's not your fault you are constantly logically inconsistent with your premise.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

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RJG wrote:The problem with this approach is the abandonment of finding 'real' truth in favor of finding "feel-goodness".
Eduk wrote:You can't decide to abandon anything (if there is no free will).
Ding, ding, ding, ...Correct!

Eduk wrote:But then you can't decide not to chastise someone for deciding to do something…
Ding, ding, ding, ...again, Correct!

Eduk wrote: ...so it's not your fault you are constantly logically inconsistent with your premise.
Errrrp ...Incorrect! -- The correct answer is "It is not my fault for being logically CONSISTENT".

Eduk, if you find an "inconsistency" in something I've said, then don't beat around the bush, point it out directly! ...show the contradiction/inconsistency, don't just say there is one.
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

RJG You aren't deciding to be logically inconsistent. And you can't decide to acknowledge your logical inconsistencies. But chastising someone for making a decision when you declare decisions to be impossible is of course logically inconsistent. So yes you are inconsistent, it is your nature.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:But chastising someone for making a decision when you declare decisions to be impossible is of course logically inconsistent.
Where is the inconsistency??? -- Are you somehow trying to imply that the "chastising" itself was a "decided" action? You seem to have forgotten the second half of your own sentence ("decisions are impossible").

If I can't (consciously) decide anything, then I certainly can't decide to "chastise". -- sorry Eduk, there is no logical "inconsistency" here.
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

Interesting, my first two sentences (in my previous post) are written from the perspective that decisions are impossible. But you uncharitably read them differently? Anyway it is irrelevant.

To chastise someone you must find fault with them. If you believe that decisions are impossible then you cannot logically chastise someone for making a decision. This is clear and simple logic and doesn't require that you can decide or not. It is illogical whether or not you can decide. You are either inherently illogical or deciding to be illogical (in reality of course it is a mix)
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:To chastise someone you must find fault with them.
Firstly, "finding fault" is not a "must" or a logical (mathematical) requirement of chastising. As one can certainly chastise someone 'without' "finding fault".

Eduk wrote:If you believe that decisions are impossible then you cannot logically [decide to] chastise someone for making a decision.
Secondly, to maintain logical consistency, you need to include the missing words here [added above in red]. Since I did not "decide" to chastise, I am therefore not logically inconsistent.
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

Let's just agree that you can't decide to be logical.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:Let's just agree that you can't decide to be logical.
This I can agree with. :) ...either we are or we are not.
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

You mean you can't agree :-)
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:You mean you can't agree :-)
Huh? It is not that I can't agree, ...it is just that I can't (consciously) "decide" to agree, ...my (so-called) decisions are made before I am conscious of them. We can't be conscious-of-something, without there (first) being 'something' to be conscious of, including our decisions!

Everything that I am conscious of, has already been decided; has already happened! ...and therefore it is too late to cause/decide that which I am conscious of.
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Bahman
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman »

Have you ever been in a situation that you like both options equally? A deterministic system halts in such a situation. You need a free agent to choose one option.
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 »

Bahman wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm Have you ever been in a situation that you like both options equally? A deterministic system halts in such a situation. You need a free agent to choose one option.
In that case your unconscious will make up your mind.
And you will think you made a conscious choice.
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