Free will does not exist (Beware)

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Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

RJG wrote: January 30th, 2019, 12:04 pm"Make life better"???
Right, that was one of the issues on the table between you and the other poster. I weight in on that specific issue. I did not argue that one should stop seeking truth, etc. I weighed in specfically on the possibility that life might be made worse deciding determinism was the case, even if this was correct.

If we can't accept logical truths as truths, then we are not serious about finding truths. We are instead, just looking for justifications to support our feel-good (make believe) truths.
And in this instance I was trying to find the truth about a specific topic. You argued against the idea that it would cause more harm. But now it is as if you never participated in that debate. It is as if that debate is wrong headed. I respond to your arguments in that debate and now I am told that this is me setting up a religion. (which is you, by the way, expressing your values as if they are objective) Now personally I try to go for truth, even if it leads to unpleasant feelings. At least as far as I can tell. I could be wrong. See my points about fallibility in introspection. But at least consciously I have that value.

So you assumptions about me and my values are not correct.

You can decide to respond to the points I made in response to yours or not.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Karpel Tunnel wrote:So your assumptions about me and my values are not correct.
Karpel, my argument was not about you (or BG) or your values. It was about the 'premise' that you (and he) were seemingly putting forward --> "If truth is ugly (or is against our values), then we should discard it and not believe it as truth."

If we can't accept logical truths as truth (regardless of it's ugliness!), then we are just playing games and fooling ourselves.

I find it somewhat insulting (to the good name of philosophy) that one would even consider the ugliness or the feel-goodness of a truth, in determining it's truth/falseness.
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Bahman
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman »

Djacob7 wrote: January 30th, 2019, 9:23 pm
Bahman wrote: January 30th, 2019, 4:36 pm Have you ever been in a situation that you like both options equally? A deterministic system halts in such a situation. You need a free agent to choose one option.
In that case your unconscious will make up your mind.
And you will think you made a conscious choice.
Is unconscious mind deterministic?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost »

RJG wrote: January 31st, 2019, 10:47 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote:So your assumptions about me and my values are not correct.
Karpel, my argument was not about you (or BG) or your values. It was about the 'premise' that you (and he) were seemingly putting forward --> "If truth is ugly (or is against our values), then we should discard it and not believe it as truth."

If we can't accept logical truths as truth (regardless of it's ugliness!), then we are just playing games and fooling ourselves.

I find it somewhat insulting (to the good name of philosophy) that one would even consider the ugliness or the feel-goodness of a truth, in determining it's truth/falseness.
Never put forward any such “premise.” The question doesn’t matter to you because you know all - which I happen to call morally abhorrent.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

Burning ghost wrote:Never put forward any such “premise.” The question doesn’t matter to you because you know all - which I happen to call morally abhorrent.
What does "morally abhorrent" have to do with 'truthfulness'?
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

What does "morally abhorrent" have to do with 'truthfulness'?
Normally quite a lot.
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:I find it somewhat insulting (to the good name of philosophy) that one would even consider the ugliness or the feel-goodness of a truth, in determining it's truth/falseness.
RJG wrote:What does "morally abhorrent" have to do with 'truthfulness'?
Eduk wrote:Normally quite a lot.
Does the "morally abhorrence" of 'no-free-will', then make 'no-free-will' false???
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

no the falseness of the belief makes it morally abhorrent.
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Does the "morally abhorrence" of no-free-will, make no-free-will false?
Eduk wrote:no the falseness of the belief makes it morally abhorrent.
Okay, it sounds like you are agreeing with me here - a first! :) (...though you may want to reconsider your words, as it might be morally abhorrent to you to ever agree with me! :wink: ).

Yes, although X may be 'ugly' (morally abhorrent), but it's 'ugliness' is not a determinant of its truthfulness (or falseness).
Eduk
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk »

Out of interest RJG what is it you want. Recognition? Or some kind of action? For it seems to me that if was to take your theory seriously then the best thing I could do would be to never converse with you again?
Unknown means unknown.
Gertie
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Gertie »

Tosen
This truth can be proven two ways: Empirically and phenomenologically.
Phenomenology is your conscious awareness of the -here and now-. Meaning you are aware that you are reading this right now. You are consciousness, without awareness you don't exist, as there is nothing to be aware at. So it is of a subjective kind, as it is your experience of the -here and now-. So, why is there no free will? By a very close examination of your current awareness, one can self-affirm that one does not think thoughts, instead one perceives thoughts. Thoughts come from nothingness (by this I mean they come from nowhere,literally) this means that you do not conjure thoughts at all.

I think you make a good case Tosen, as does Harris. It's hard to make a case for anything worth calling free will, when we examine the way our own conscious experience works, and when we look at how physical brains work, which our conscious experience seems to correlate to. (The correlation can in theory explain our thoughts being sparked by existing patterns of neural connectivity). There doesn't seem to be any room for free will, or any need for it. Brains seemingly do the physical behaviour job based on physical causation, no thinking/choosing/willing required.


And as you point out later, their doesn't seem to be a command and control centre in the brain which correlates with a singular 'Self', weighing options and making decisions. I'd suggest that a 'sense of self' emerges as a way of making consciousness coherent, and is largely associated with our inner thinky voice, which gives a running commentary of what's going on, helping to create a coherent model of the world from the chaotic cacophany of sights, sounds, sensations, emotions, memories, etc.


(Tho the thinking thought experiment isn't conclusive imo, just because some thoughts aren't bidden, doesn't mean we can't 'author' our thoughts - I certainly feel like I'm doing that now in constructing this post)


But we have to bear in mind that phenomenological conscious experience is a mystery we haven't explained. That mystery might point to us lacking a deeper knowledge of how the universe works, and if we had that knowledge perhaps the notion of free will would turn out to be relevant.


There's also the point that brains, the physical correlates of conscious experience, are to put it crudely, our decision-making organs. Is it coincidence that our decision-making organs, where choices are 'decided' are conscious? Why would consciousness evolve in the decision-making organ, if it had no useful role? Why would we evolve a conscious reward system which tallies with 'good choices' if it was redundant to the physical causes processes? Such as feeling pain, hunger, love, etc, which gives us this parallel psychological account for why we choose certain actions, if it was just epiphenomenal baggage along for the ride, like a passenger in a train with a toy steering wheel watching the scenery go by?


Without an understanding of consciousness, we can guess at the answers, form opinions based on our current knowledge and understanding of how the universe and we ourselves work, but who knows...
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Bahman
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman »

Tosen wrote: October 28th, 2018, 6:33 pm This truth can be proven two ways: Empirically and phenomenologically.
Phenomenology is your conscious awareness of the -here and now-. Meaning you are aware that you are reading this right now. You are consciousness, without awareness you don't exist, as there is nothing to be aware at. So it is of a subjective kind, as it is your experience of the -here and now-. So, why is there no free will? By a very close examination of your current awareness, one can self-affirm that one does not think thoughts, instead one perceives thoughts. Thoughts come from nothingness (by this I mean they come from nowhere,literally) this means that you do not conjure thoughts at all. This is a big jump of awareness to become conscious of this. So I will offer three simple exercises:
1. Stop thinking for 5 minutes, time yourself.
2. Predict a thought.
3. Think of a word, animal or thing. Ask yourself then, why did I choose this thought?
Nothingness is indifferent so it cannot cause a coherent chain of thoughts. What is a chain of thoughts? A set of thoughts that are put together in a coherent way to form a sentence, paragraph, etc. which describes something meaningful to an intelligent agent. Why nothingness cannot cause a coherent chain of thoughts? Basically a chain of thoughts are constructed by consciousness mind to deliver something meaningful to another person with capacity to understand the chain of thoughts or to be understood as something meaningful by thinker. Suppose nothingness has capacity to cause a chain of thoughts. Each thoughts is caused at specific time. Nothingness is however indifferent so there is no correlation between thoughts which are caused therefore it is very unlikely that a coherent chain of thought is caused by nothingness. It is like when a monkey typing. What is your expectation that monkey writes a book?
Djacob7
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 »

Bahman wrote: January 31st, 2019, 11:45 am
Djacob7 wrote: January 30th, 2019, 9:23 pm

In that case your unconscious will make up your mind.
And you will think you made a conscious choice.
Is unconscious mind deterministic?
In my view consciousness and unconsciousness don't exist, only degrees of attention exist. But as far as the accepted view of unconsciousness, yes, the unconscious is deterministic. All our internal organs, for example, function like complex clockworks.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost »

RJG -

To deny personal responsibility for any action you take, to deny your part, to refuse to participate is a moral issue. To deny any sense of morality is obviously not fitting.

Djacob -

If unconsciousness and consciousness don’t exist why talk about attention? I suggest you use the terminology already inplace rather tha replacing it with your own. Attention is part of consciousness. Consciousness within cognitive neuroscience had differebt applications. Maybe you’re confusing “consciouness” with “theory of minds.
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Djacob7
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 »

Burning ghost wrote: February 1st, 2019, 12:32 am RJG -

To deny personal responsibility for any action you take, to deny your part, to refuse to participate is a moral issue. To deny any sense of morality is obviously not fitting.

Djacob -

If unconsciousness and consciousness don’t exist why talk about attention? I suggest you use the terminology already inplace rather tha replacing it with your own. Attention is part of consciousness. Consciousness within cognitive neuroscience had differebt applications. Maybe you’re confusing “consciouness” with “theory of minds.
Burning ghost, about morality and responsibility: It's the human brain that's "designed" to create stories to live by. Morality is a story (a fiction, as Dr. Harari calls it), and each one of us tells a slightly different story. A murderer is following a very different story. As William wrote, "All the world's a stage..." and the actors wouldn't know what to do if there wasn't a story.
Humans religiously believe that they are the masters of their actions, and many of them, including you, cannot possibly accept that we're all robots, as are snails and bacteria. G.I. Gurdjieff said it plainly, "We are machines."
When the day comes and some machines will be indistinguishable from humans, we'll have a hard time claiming either that they're conscious or unconscious.
It might seem to you that one would be horrified by the thought that they're a robot, but it doesn't seem like that to me. When I concentrate on the thought that I'm a robot, I become fascinated with the intricacy of my mechanics, and what makes me "tick".
When a judge sentences a murderer to jail, he's doing what society's current story is telling him to do, and that story has evolved just like the birds and the bees.
My next statement is sure to sound ridiculous (even to me to a certain extent), but I'll state it anyhow: There is nothing it is like to be a bat.
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