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Free will does not exist (Beware)

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RJG
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG » February 1st, 2019, 10:20 am

Eduk wrote:Out of interest @RJG what is it you want. Recognition? Or some kind of action?
I'm here for fully selfish reasons. I want to know the 'real' truths of life/reality. I'm getting old and tire of being propagandized into believing someone's pet 'fairy tale'.

I don't care if the real truth is ugly or non-palatable. I ain't gonna be here (live) forever! For it is the selfish satisfaction of knowing the 'real' stuff (before I croak) that motivates me.

Burning ghost wrote:To deny personal responsibility for any action you take, to deny your part, to refuse to participate is a moral issue. To deny any sense of morality is obviously not fitting.
If free-will does not exist, then we have no choice in the actions we take. Our actions therefore are just auto-reactions that are then consciously realized. Although we may be "physically" responsible, we certainly are not "morally" responsible for these actions.

As an example, when the doc hits your knee cap with the little rubber hammer, your leg auto-reactively kicks outward. Certainly you would not claim that you are "morally" responsible for 'auto-reactively' kicking the doc in the shin, ...right? ...in other words, although you can't deny "physically" kicking him, BUT you can deny "intentionally" or "morally" kicking him.

If there is no free-will, then there is no "morality" or "moral responsibility". Our 'dislike' of this fact, is not relevant to its truthfulness.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk » February 1st, 2019, 10:34 am

I'm here for fully selfish reasons. I want to know the 'real' truths of life/reality. I'm getting old and tire of being propagandized into believing someone's pet 'fairy tale'.
I have yet to see you learn anything from countless posts? You simply repeat the same thing you originally said. Not that I have read all your posts of course, but it's a theme.
Unknown means unknown.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman » February 1st, 2019, 10:52 am

Djacob7 wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 7:50 pm
Bahman wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 11:45 am

Is unconscious mind deterministic?
In my view consciousness and unconsciousness don't exist, only degrees of attention exist. But as far as the accepted view of unconsciousness, yes, the unconscious is deterministic. All our internal organs, for example, function like complex clockworks.
A deterministic system as I mentioned halts in a situation when options are liked equally.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost » February 1st, 2019, 11:56 am

RJG -
If free-will does not exist, then we have no choice in the actions we take. Our actions therefore are just auto-reactions that are then consciously realized. Although we may be "physically" responsible, we certainly are not "morally" responsible for these actions.

As an example, when the doc hits your knee cap with the little rubber hammer, your leg auto-reactively kicks outward. Certainly you would not claim that you are "morally" responsible for 'auto-reactively' kicking the doc in the shin, ...right? ...in other words, although you can't deny "physically" kicking him, BUT you can deny "intentionally" or "morally" kicking him.

If there is no free-will, then there is no "morality" or "moral responsibility". Our 'dislike' of this fact, is not relevant to its truthfulness.
Of course. The key word being “if” which you have a tendency to omit presenting your thoughts as if complete and/or irrefutable.

My position is simple enough. I am not saying that we do have free will for sure only that we act as if we do and that to take on the role of someone not living with free will at all (as a dogmatic and unsubstantiated belief) is immoral. To add, and repeat, I would argue that it is also immoral to suggest - as religious zealots tend to do - that they are some extremely important individual in the greater universal picture; basically taking on the opposite role to saying “no free will” and saying instead “free will, choice, and responsibility for all human actions and taking on the burden of humanity upon their shoulders in the belief that they are all important and correct.

To take on the belief that there is no morality is a type of nihilism. I’ve nihilism is a path to something “fuller” if followed through. Most just stop there and assume it to be the end of the road because that scheme of thought generally makes further thought easier to avoid/ignore.

In regards to the OP I simply say “Beware of anyone saying free will doesn’t exist.” In some ways I can mostly agree that “free will” doesn’t exist - the emphasis being in the parenthesis here; there are some subtle differences that people use to define the term.

There is certainly no “feel good factor” or “fairy tale” involved in denying a singular position as absolutely true when it is both unproven, against basic human intuition, and if correct absolutely pointless in “believing in” much like it is pointless to belief in a fact that most birds can fly to serve as a meaningful point from which to base your life on.

It is not “dislike” of the idea that we have no free will, it is the utterly fruitless adherence to the idea when it is both impossible to prove and if taken on faith a denial of human life if true - the choice to belief you have no free will is everyone’s. It is simply illogical, immoral and pointless so why bother with it? It could be decided by way of some form of nihilism that human life is both pointless and meaningless and then to use that as a reason to abscond from a belief in free will due to a general disbelief (or general lack of emotive concern with) huma existence ... it’s not my personal philosophy though, and it is certainly a subjective position I can appreciate yet I find it wanting for numerous reasons logically, morally and intuitively.

If the question underlying all this is some drive to find “knowledge” then first examine what it is you mean by “knowledge” and what equivalent to “knowledge” may be to you if you had no language with which to communicate ideas to others and remained in a mostly locked in state existing and acting without a tangiable symbolic forom of inner expression that we have here - and by which we’re able to communicate.

Any doctor worth anything would be one kicking themselves. It is hardly fair to compare reactions to conscious decisions (by decisions I mean a process that has at least mean made in the brain rather than the leg). There are many intermediataries between these and that is where neuroscience is still exploreing - not to prove or disprove, simply to explore and understand.
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG » February 1st, 2019, 1:44 pm

Burning ghost wrote:I am not saying that we do have free will for sure only that we act as if we do
What does this "act as if we do" really mean? People like to quote these specific words as if it has some special meaning, but what meaning does it really have? How would we act differently if we did not have free-will?

If we have free-will, then we will do/act as we so desire, and...
If we don't have free-will, then again, we will still do/act as we so desire.

So what is the difference in our actions? ...aren't they both being controlled in the same way?

Burning ghost wrote:...as if complete and/or irrefutable.

...as a dogmatic and unsubstantiated belief

...when it is both unproven

...it is both impossible to prove
Quite the contrary, the actuality of 'free-will' is an irrefutable logical impossibility on many fronts. The 'psychological acceptance' of these logical proofs, is another matter altogether.

Give me a bit of time to compose and post (in a new topic) some of these "irrefutable logical proofs" against 'free-will'. And then watch the emotional (irrational) poster responses to this new OP, in denying the very solid logic in front of their eyes. This is what I mean by the inability to "psychologically accept" logical truths as truths. It seems that most people will deny 'sound logic' in favor of irrationality if it conflicts with their humanly desires (feeling of special-ness; important-ness; purpose of being; etc etc).

I'll try to post this new topic sometime next week when I get more time.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm

Bahman wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 10:52 am
Djacob7 wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 7:50 pm

In my view consciousness and unconsciousness don't exist, only degrees of attention exist. But as far as the accepted view of unconsciousness, yes, the unconscious is deterministic. All our internal organs, for example, function like complex clockworks.
A deterministic system as I mentioned halts in a situation when options are liked equally.
OK, then let's agree that determinism is true 99.9% of the time because anything liked exactly equally very seldom occurs, if ever.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman » February 1st, 2019, 4:30 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm
Bahman wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 10:52 am

A deterministic system as I mentioned halts in a situation when options are liked equally.
OK, then let's agree that determinism is true 99.9% of the time because anything liked exactly equally very seldom occurs, if ever.
How many times in a day you decide? Conflict of interests in subconscious mind makes conscious decision necessary.

Moreover, unconscious mind exists. Have you ever perceived an idea when you were not thinking? Such an idea comes from unconscious mind.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 1st, 2019, 7:14 pm

Bahman wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 4:30 pm
Djacob7 wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm


OK, then let's agree that determinism is true 99.9% of the time because anything liked exactly equally very seldom occurs, if ever.
How many times in a day you decide? Conflict of interests in subconscious mind makes conscious decision necessary.

Moreover, unconscious mind exists. Have you ever perceived an idea when you were not thinking? Such an idea comes from unconscious mind.
Thanks you, you made my point here "Conflict of interests in subconscious mind makes conscious decision necessary." It's the so-called unconscious mind that MAKES the so-called conscious mind do something.
Even your second point says about the same thing: Ideas pop into our minds! From where? Who knows, but not FROM OUR so-called CONSCIOUS MIND.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost » February 1st, 2019, 10:46 pm

RJG -

This is fallacy you repeat ... you state some obvious points like I’m disagreeing with you on them then say something that is both contradictory to what you’ve already said as well as being plain false.

There is no sensible discusson possible from here.
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Bahman » February 2nd, 2019, 11:16 am

Djacob7 wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:14 pm
Bahman wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 4:30 pm

How many times in a day you decide? Conflict of interests in subconscious mind makes conscious decision necessary.

Moreover, unconscious mind exists. Have you ever perceived an idea when you were not thinking? Such an idea comes from unconscious mind.
Thanks you, you made my point here "Conflict of interests in subconscious mind makes conscious decision necessary." It's the so-called unconscious mind that MAKES the so-called conscious mind do something.
I didn't say that unconscious mind makes conscious decision. Conscious and unconscious mind affect each other. The situation is brought into attention of conscious mind when there is a conflict in unconscious mind. That is conscious mind which makes decision in such a situation.
Djacob7 wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:14 pm
Even your second point says about the same thing: Ideas pop into our minds! From where? Who knows, but not FROM OUR so-called CONSCIOUS MIND.
The idea which pops into your conscious mind is of course the result of your mental activity. This mental activity is not conscious otherwise you were aware of the process which leads to idea. Therefore that is unconscious mind which produced the idea.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG » February 2nd, 2019, 2:03 pm

Burning ghost wrote:This is fallacy you repeat ... you state some obvious points like I’m disagreeing with you on them then say something that is both contradictory to what you’ve already said as well as being plain false.
BG, if you wish to 'accuse' me of a fallacy/contradiction, then at least have the decency to show the 'evidence' (...my actual words!), ...otherwise, making accusations without evidence is just "sour grapes".

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Belindi » February 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

RJG wrote:
As an example, when the doc hits your knee cap with the little rubber hammer, your leg auto-reactively kicks outward. Certainly you would not claim that you are "morally" responsible for 'auto-reactively' kicking the doc in the shin, ...right? ...in other words, although you can't deny "physically" kicking him, BUT you can deny "intentionally" or "morally" kicking him.

If there is no free-will, then there is no "morality" or "moral responsibility". Our 'dislike' of this fact, is not relevant to its truthfulness.
But moral responsibility is shouldered by men who make the effort to predict as far as they can benefit 'the others'. The others may be his family, his students, his patients, his nation, his farm, humanity, or God.Moral responsibility, in fewer words, is what responsible moral men do.We recognise moral responsibiity in action by evaluating what men do.

Moral responsibility does not exist deontologically, moral responsibility exists consequentially. Free Will belief is contrary to moral responsibility because so-called 'Free Will' by definition is uncaused, and if you don't know any predisposing causes of an act you cannot learn the probable consequences . An example of the latter is roulette: the player knows nothing of what causes the wheel to stop at a certain point, so he can't predict, and that's why Free Will, like roulette, is chance.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by RJG » February 2nd, 2019, 7:36 pm

RJG wrote:If there is no free-will, then there is no "morality" or "moral responsibility".
Belindi wrote:But moral responsibility is shouldered by men who make the effort…
But men without free-will cannot 'choose' to make the effort. If they make the effort, it is done without their choosing.

Belindi wrote:Moral responsibility, in fewer words, is what responsible moral men do. We recognise moral responsibility in action by evaluating what men do.
But again, without free-will, men cannot 'choose' those actions which others will then designate with blame or praise.

Belindi wrote:Free Will belief is contrary to moral responsibility because so-called 'Free Will' by definition is uncaused, and if you don't know any predisposing causes of an act you cannot learn the probable consequences.
Yes, but "uncaused" does not imply "moral responsibility".

To be 'responsible' for our actions, we have to be the 'causers' of our actions. If our actions are 'uncaused', then we are not the causers, nor responsible for that which we did not cause. ...true?

Belindi wrote:An example of the latter is roulette: the player knows nothing of what causes the wheel to stop at a certain point, so he can't predict, and that's why Free Will, like roulette, is chance.
So then is the player responsible for the number the ball lands on? ...or is that number "randomly" given to him?

In either case, if our choices are 'randomly given' to us, or 'deterministically forced' upon us, then it is not 'us' choosing our choices. We can only then blame/praise (hold responsible) 'randomness' or 'determinism'.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 2nd, 2019, 8:34 pm

To those who say we have free will, I'd ask:
If a murderer had a large tumor in their brain that rendered them incapable of controlling their actions was deemed innocent by a judge upon recommendation of several doctors, would that be fair?
If so, then it behooves those free will advocates to come up with a size of tumor that would make a criminal responsible for their actions.
This scenario isn't all that different from lawmakers having to decide up to how many weeks you can have an abortion.

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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost » February 3rd, 2019, 1:17 am

RJG -
In either case, if our choices are 'randomly given' to us, or 'deterministically forced' upon us, then it is not 'us' choosing our choices. We can only then blame/praise (hold responsible) 'randomness' or 'determinism'.
Wrong. Plain and simple. Determinism doesn’t necessarily mean lack of choice. It means there are observable laws of nature which allow for a degree of prediction and therefore the choice (be it limited in some cases and non-existent in others) is there. The doctor hitting your knee effectively kicks themselves because I would assume any doctor knows that hitting someone’s knee will result in a physical reaction that is not only out of the hands of the person’s leg but out of their brain too.

The patien chose to go to the doctors though. It wasn’t a “random” occurrence. The person weighed the pros and cons and determined that seeing a doctor was the best short/long term thing to do - it may also be that certain events leading up to the decision made the person deciding to go to the doctor more or less possible due to innumerable factors.

Not sure why you’d say “sour grapes”? You seem to use phrases and words to suit your personal purposes without telling anyone else what they mean.

Whether there is or isn’t free will is unproven adn will likely remain so or be overturned as a ridiculous question. As to the morality of the issue it is handsdown in favour of free will. To make decisions (or rather to base your day-to-day actions upon the foundation of the principle that your “decisions” are illusionary and that you cannot do other than you have already done - fatalism) without free will is immoral because it denies ALL responsibility. To argue, “but if you don’t ...” is simply to avoid what is beng said.

We ALL perfectly understand if there is no “free will” (in the sense you mean it) then it doesn’t matter what we believe or wish for. What you keep avoiding is the “if so” ... if we have free will our choices matter; unless you decide to then subscribe to some form of nihilism of course - which you might.

There is simply no way to avoid this, no way to deny it, and nothing you can do. It is not asking a lot for to admit that having free will means your choices make a difference - regardless of the degree of difference. To adhere mentally and phsyically to the idea of fatalism is to make zero “effort” to refuse choices based on anything other than acting spontaneously in the moment under the belief that “it doesn’t matter, my choice is already made”. It is not a functional way to live and anyone acting in such a manner would likely be locked up in a mental institute because they hold irrationally to a system of thought that has no absolute evidence - such as an understanding of gravity or evolutionary theory.

Afterall we may all be the automated thoughts of a supernatural penguins dream ... but we certainly don’t live and act as if such a proposition is absolutely true and even if we could we’ve no idea what it would mean anyway.

I’d say you still need to step back to the premise from which you began wih Descartes. The premise of some “absolute knowledge”. You could perhaps address what “knowledge” means again? No doubt you’ll refer to what anyone else says as “fantasy” whilst avoiding the the endless problem of words being non-universal components of communicable thought NOT universally solid propositions. The discussion Consul and Count are having covers this ground a little.

By this I mean to point out that you use these words “free will”, “choice” and “determinism” without bothering to regard them as “fantasy” unless it suits you to do so in order to refuse what others say. It’s facile at best and deeply childish at worst.
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