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Free will does not exist (Beware)

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Eduk
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Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Eduk » February 5th, 2019, 7:28 am

I just told my dog to sit. He sat. I'm an agent.
Unknown means unknown.

Belindi
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Belindi » February 5th, 2019, 7:37 am

Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 1:58 am
Pure and simple: All the particles that make up an organic organism are subject to physical laws, and no agent can interfere with their actions.
But the particles that make up Djacob7 are not a simple aggregate.Djacob7 is an intelligent system.

Belindi
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Belindi » February 5th, 2019, 7:39 am

Belindi wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:37 am
Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 1:58 am
Pure and simple: All the particles that make up an organic organism are subject to physical laws, and no agent can interfere with their actions.
But the particles that make up Djacob7 are not a simple aggregate.Djacob7 is an intelligent system.An intelligent system is more of an agent for change than is an aggregate of particles.

Djacob7
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 5th, 2019, 2:50 pm

Belindi wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:37 am
Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 1:58 am
Pure and simple: All the particles that make up an organic organism are subject to physical laws, and no agent can interfere with their actions.
But the particles that make up Djacob7 are not a simple aggregate.Djacob7 is an intelligent system.
So is a snail.

Karpel Tunnel
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Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 6th, 2019, 12:29 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 1:58 am
Pure and simple: All the particles that make up an organic organism are subject to physical laws, and no agent can interfere with their actions.
How do we know this? Are we sure we know all the physical laws and phenomena? Is science complete?

Djacob7
Posts: 35
Joined: October 23rd, 2017, 4:26 am

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 6th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:29 pm
Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 1:58 am
Pure and simple: All the particles that make up an organic organism are subject to physical laws, and no agent can interfere with their actions.
How do we know this? Are we sure we know all the physical laws and phenomena? Is science complete?
On the macro scale, which includes single cells and larger, all organic systems seem to be stable. Even quantum probability or uncertainty do not make an animal go haywire. This means organic system are obeying physical laws, known and unknown.

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LuckyR
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by LuckyR » February 6th, 2019, 6:32 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:29 pm
How do we know this? Are we sure we know all the physical laws and phenomena? Is science complete?
On the macro scale, which includes single cells and larger, all organic systems seem to be stable. Even quantum probability or uncertainty do not make an animal go haywire. This means organic system are obeying physical laws, known and unknown.
"seem"?... doesn't sound definitive to me. Unfortunately for the air of certainty you'd like to give your conjecture, no one has drawn a line from the behavior of quarks through molecules, compounds, neurotransmitter receptors to behavior. Lots of uncertainty along the way.
"As usual... it depends."

Djacob7
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 6th, 2019, 6:41 pm

LuckyR wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 6:32 pm
Djacob7 wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:47 pm


On the macro scale, which includes single cells and larger, all organic systems seem to be stable. Even quantum probability or uncertainty do not make an animal go haywire. This means organic system are obeying physical laws, known and unknown.
"seem"?... doesn't sound definitive to me. Unfortunately for the air of certainty you'd like to give your conjecture, no one has drawn a line from the behavior of quarks through molecules, compounds, neurotransmitter receptors to behavior. Lots of uncertainty along the way.
Lots of uncertainty, but not enough to allow for free will.

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LuckyR
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by LuckyR » February 6th, 2019, 7:09 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 6:41 pm
LuckyR wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 6:32 pm


"seem"?... doesn't sound definitive to me. Unfortunately for the air of certainty you'd like to give your conjecture, no one has drawn a line from the behavior of quarks through molecules, compounds, neurotransmitter receptors to behavior. Lots of uncertainty along the way.
Lots of uncertainty, but not enough to allow for free will.
A perfectly reasonable opinion.
"As usual... it depends."

Djacob7
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Joined: October 23rd, 2017, 4:26 am

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 6th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:29 pm
How do we know this? Are we sure we know all the physical laws and phenomena? Is science complete?
On the macro scale, which includes single cells and larger, all organic systems seem to be stable. Even quantum probability or uncertainty do not make an animal go haywire. This means organic system are obeying physical laws, known and unknown.
I'd like to change "...all organic systems seem to be stable." to "...all organic systems are stable."

Belindi
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Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Belindi » February 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:50 pm
Belindi wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:37 am
But the particles that make up Djacob7 are not a simple aggregate.Djacob7 is an intelligent system.
So is a snail.


Isn't relative ability to learn from experience the key attribute of intelligence?

Djacob7
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Joined: October 23rd, 2017, 4:26 am

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 6th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Belindi wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm
Djacob7 wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:50 pm


So is a snail.


Isn't relative ability to learn from experience the key attribute of intelligence?
"Intelligence" is an anthropocentric meme. Learning is only one aspect of intelligence, and a very subjective one at that.
Which species is more likely to survive longer on Earth, termites or humans? Wouldn't you expect it would be the more intelligent one? Has the human species learned anything from history? Or does history repeat itself? How long would you guess till human doomsday? Hawking's guess is 1000 years. Intelligent?? Oh yes, we're so intelligent that we're already working on a backup planet for humanity!

Belindi
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Belindi » February 6th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Djacob7 wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 7:55 pm
Belindi wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm


Isn't relative ability to learn from experience the key attribute of intelligence?
"Intelligence" is an anthropocentric meme. Learning is only one aspect of intelligence, and a very subjective one at that.
Which species is more likely to survive longer on Earth, termites or humans? Wouldn't you expect it would be the more intelligent one? Has the human species learned anything from history? Or does history repeat itself? How long would you guess till human doomsday? Hawking's guess is 1000 years. Intelligent?? Oh yes, we're so intelligent that we're already working on a backup planet for humanity!
It is anthropocentic, what I claimed about ability to learn from experience. My reason for claiming it is that I think that would be most people's choice for the defining attribute of intelligent individual humans. Humanity is a sad species.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Burning ghost » February 7th, 2019, 12:55 am

Humanity is wonderful. If you are antihuman then ... well, er ...

We’re intelligent because we’re capable of more and able to fix things (including ourselves). Inevitably all species wil be gone one day, but we’re certainly quite different to other species (the confused ape as Sa-olsky puts it; neither one thing or the other).
AKA badgerjelly

Djacob7
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Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Post by Djacob7 » February 7th, 2019, 1:30 am

Burning ghost wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:55 am
Humanity is wonderful. If you are antihuman then ... well, er ...

We’re intelligent because we’re capable of more and able to fix things (including ourselves). Inevitably all species wil be gone one day, but we’re certainly quite different to other species (the confused ape as Sa-olsky puts it; neither one thing or the other).
The day isn't too far when machines will be more intelligent than humans. Not in all areas, but certainly in making and fixing things, including themselves.

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