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Closing the topic "Free Will"

Posted: December 1st, 2018, 4:48 am
by Amjadiqbal
Let me close the topic.
When brain works and you begin thinking(about whatsoever) this is your will and when you start thinking that all your thoughts are independent of every ground this is called free will/stupidity.
There is not a single universal constant in the universe whose value remains constant through mediums/no-medium.Hence a foot ahead of will,man developed the word free will but they ignored the bound will.Its the bound will which we kept ignoring and this is all that every mind started believing a fake thing called free will.Every free will is bounded to time/entity/medium/personal thought for a few period in which it seems free but in living world it doesn't take a minute to prove it fake in another frame.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: December 2nd, 2018, 3:27 am
by Burning ghost
When people talk of free will they so actually mean will within bounded limits. If you thought otherwise then you’re “stupid.”

All “freedom” is necessarily bound by the unknown dictates of reality - maybe there are set “rules” and maybe not. All we can do is see the world as a structure existing for us because we’re able to appreciate certain patterns that are measureable (to varying degrees) by our constitution.

The idea that thoughts are “independent of every ground” is an extreme idealism (a position only the dogmatic take up.)

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 22nd, 2019, 4:26 am
by Djacob7
It's not your fault if you stab someone, and it's not the judge's fault if they sentence you to jail.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 26th, 2019, 6:27 am
by meaningful_products
Djacob7 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 4:26 am
It's not your fault if you stab someone, and it's not the judge's fault if they sentence you to jail.
Humanity morphs as a species by defining principles in which judges apply to cases in order to determine if "fault" exists with respect to a person and a set of circumstances. This process deters/filters human conduct, achieves a sense of justice, and/or gives a piece of mind.

You speak of fault in the purely volitional sense. I mean that you have to have free will and exercise mental fortitude with this "muscle" that we call the mind in order to be considered at fault.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 26th, 2019, 5:29 pm
by Djacob7
Yes, "you have to have free will and exercise mental fortitude with this "muscle" that we call the mind in order to be considered at fault.", but since we don't have free will, we cannot be at fault.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 27th, 2019, 3:50 am
by Burning ghost
Djacob7 wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 5:29 pm
Yes, "you have to have free will and exercise mental fortitude with this "muscle" that we call the mind in order to be considered at fault.", but since we don't have free will, we cannot be at fault.
Which gives you the right to deny responsibility for all your actions ... you’ll get along well with RJG. Morally abhorrent yet willing to dodge the label in order to avoid any responsibility. Kind of twisted ... if you’re wrong the what? I assume you admit you could be wrong?

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 27th, 2019, 6:03 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Djacob7 wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 5:29 pm
Yes, "you have to have free will and exercise mental fortitude with this "muscle" that we call the mind in order to be considered at fault.", but since we don't have free will, we cannot be at fault.
If you don't have free will, then you don't know if this argument makes sense or if you are simply compelled to think it does - a 'makes sense' quale has been triggered. And of course no one else needs to stop thinking it is someone's fault, since they too would be compelled into their positions. Of course a judge could, when presented with arguments of it not being anyone's fault, given determinism, could decide not to punish.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 27th, 2019, 6:05 am
by Judaka
@Tousen
If I drop a rock, you don't say "I" dropped the rock, you say my conscious mind is unconsciously connected to my unconscious desire to drop the rock and my conscious mind is under the illusion that I created the thought and performed the action. The argument attacks causation itself, even if "I" drop the rock 1000 times, if I plan to do it, plan how I'll do it, all from the conscious desire to show my free will - it's all just my illusion... Isn't this the same argument as solipsism?

The subconscious and unconscious brain do things without the conscious minds knowledge, there's connectivity between all three. This isn't an argument against the conscious mind unless we start to utilise solipsism type arguments.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 8:11 am
by RJG
Djacob7 wrote:It's not your fault if you stab someone, and it's not the judge's fault if they sentence you to jail.
Bingo! -- But to clarify further, if you stab someone you did not do this consciously, you only 'realized' this consciously. Therefore it was not your (the 'conscious' you) fault, but instead, it was your (the 'physical' you) fault! The 'physical' you should therefore be punished (i.e. 'corrected') accordingly!

Burning ghost wrote:Which gives you the right to deny responsibility for all your actions ... you’ll get along well with RJG. Morally abhorrent yet willing to dodge the label in order to avoid any responsibility. Kind of twisted ... if you’re wrong the what? I assume you admit you could be wrong?
@Burning ghost, there is no "dodging" or denying of responsibility. Consciously we don't make choices, but physically (non-consciously) we 'do' (we auto-react accordingly). When one is punished for a crime (i.e. a bad physical auto-reaction) it is not the conscious person who is being punished, it is the physical body that rightfully serves his sentence, in an attempt to rehabilitate his future physical reactions.

Being without free-will does not mean one has a free ticket to commit crimes. Although the conscious self is certainly innocent, the physical self should be held responsible with his ("bad") auto-reactions corrected accordingly.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 12:16 pm
by Burning ghost
RJG -

What do you mean by “choice”?

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 1:55 pm
by RJG
RJG wrote:Consciously we don't make choices, but physically (non-consciously) we 'do' (we auto-react accordingly).
Burning ghost wrote:What do you mean by “choice”?
"Choice" in the above context means - the action taken by our physical body. There is no such thing as a "conscious choice" (aka "free-will"), but only the conscious recognition of our bodily reactions.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 7:00 pm
by Burning ghost
Yet you cannot prove it and simply stick to your dogma. I hope you die! By that I mean my brain has conscious recognition that my body wishes you were dead ... see the issue with this? Of course you’ll cry insult again yet by your own words there is no insult.

It makes no sense yet you call it “logic”.

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 29th, 2019, 12:27 am
by RJG
Wow BG, all this anger over defining "choice"?

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 29th, 2019, 3:00 am
by Burning ghost
RJG wrote:
January 29th, 2019, 12:27 am
Wow BG, all this anger over defining "choice"?
It was an example not an expression of anger. When I blink it is a “choice”. When I breath it is a “choice”. That is how you’ve defined “choice”. I see problems with this don’t you?

Why is it that we’re conscious of some of these “choices” and not others? Is your representation of the term “choice” justified and/or explained well enough?

Re: Free will does not exist (Beware)

Posted: January 29th, 2019, 8:39 am
by RJG
RJG wrote:"Choice" in the above context means - the action taken by our physical body. There is no such thing as a "conscious choice" (aka "free-will"), but only the conscious recognition of our bodily reactions.
Burning ghost wrote:When I blink it is a “choice”. When I breath it is a “choice”. That is how you’ve defined “choice”. I see problems with this don’t you?
You miss the point. -- There is no such thing as a "choice" in the normal sense that we use this word. If there is no free-will; then there is no real choice. Any so-called choices made are then therefore just bodily actions/reactions that we become conscious of. That's it.