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Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

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Steve3007
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Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Steve3007 » November 2nd, 2018, 8:00 pm

I think it's interesting to consider what, if anything, should be done about posters whose words here are likely to break the laws of the country in which they purportedly live. Two recent examples of such posters are the one called "Ami" whose central theme was advocacy for paedophilia and the one called "Dachshund" who has made various statements to the effect that people of certain racial/ethnic groups ought to be regarded as subhuman and treated accordingly.

Example post from Ami:
viewtopic.php?p=220364#p220364

Example post from Dachshund:
viewtopic.php?p=323088#p323088

In the latter case, the poster has claimed to be a citizen of the UK. His words, if traceable to an identifiable UK citizen, could be judged to contravene Part 3 of the Public Order Act 1986 in UK law.

Should we tolerate such posts, and such posters, in the cause of the free expression of controversial ideas?

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Greta
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Greta » November 2nd, 2018, 10:23 pm

I'm not sure, Steve. I think I'd just try to follow the legalities here because I am so accustomed to controversial ideas being aired on these forums. I found Ami's posts quite unbearable, so if people want that thread or his posts n it gone, no problem.

Steve3007
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Steve3007 » November 3rd, 2018, 4:25 am

Once a post has been made I personally am generally reluctant to see them removed because, apart from anything else, they constitute evidence.

I'm just mildly interested in the legalities of a site like this. It's a US based site and, as I understand it, US law has a tendency to allow what might be called "hate speech" to a greater extent than UK and Australian law. But I wonder if a site like this should be regarded as international and subject only to the laws/rules dictated in its own conditions of use. Since all the posters here are anonymous (unless they choose not to be) I wonder if that means that, legally, they can say, essentially, anything.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by A_Seagull » November 3rd, 2018, 4:18 pm

In the domain of philosophy free speech is paramount. If people cannot express their truly held beliefs in a forum like this and have them rationally refuted then there is a failure in philosophy.

If someone else's ideas are abhorrent to a philosopher, then either the philosopher must be able to rationally refute them or question their own personal biases (we all have them) and ask themselves why they find the notions abhorrent. If the philosopher cannot achieve success in either of these, then they need to question their own philosophy.

With regard to the racism view, one can ask why is it acceptable to be biased towards blind support for ones own soccer team or basketball team but not one's race identified by the colour of one's skin. (Any sort of decent philosophy shouldn't find this too hard.)

The question of paedophilia is perhaps slightly harder. Suppose someone is born with a predilection towards children in the same way that gays are attracted to members of the same gender and straights are attracted to members of the opposite gender. What are those people supposed to do? There seems to be no social program towards assisting those people to meet their needs without hurting or damaging children.

It is perhaps the role of philosophers more than sociologists or politicians to come up with meaningful rational arguments to resolve these problems.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!

Steve3007
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Steve3007 » November 3rd, 2018, 5:32 pm

A_Seagull wrote:With regard to the racism view, one can ask why is it acceptable to be biased towards blind support for ones own soccer team or basketball team but not one's race identified by the colour of one's skin. (Any sort of decent philosophy shouldn't find this too hard.)
One can answer that soccer and basketball are games and that advocating the removal of human status from certain groups of humans, and therefore the removal of their protection from harm in the eyes of the law, is not the same thing as supporting the genetic home-team.

But that is not the subject of this topic. The subject is how to deal with posters who commit crimes by their words according to the laws of some, but not all, of the countries in which a website like this is used.

Steve3007
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Steve3007 » November 3rd, 2018, 5:56 pm

If the poster who advocates the sexual abuse of children was personally identifiable then, in the country where I live, they would be liable to investigation for a criminal offense. Similarly for the person who make extreme incitements to racial hatred. Naturally, for that reason and others, those people will take some care to ensure that they are not personally identifiable. Obviously they are unlikely to want to face justice for their crimes.

The interesting question is whether that should concern us. Should this place, in some sense, be regarded as akin to a place of sacramental confession? If a crime appears to have been committed, do we have a duty to attempt to discover the true identity of the poster in order to alert the relevant authorities?

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A_Seagull
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by A_Seagull » November 3rd, 2018, 6:04 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:32 pm
A_Seagull wrote:With regard to the racism view, one can ask why is it acceptable to be biased towards blind support for ones own soccer team or basketball team but not one's race identified by the colour of one's skin. (Any sort of decent philosophy shouldn't find this too hard.)
One can answer that soccer and basketball are games and that advocating the removal of human status from certain groups of humans, and therefore the removal of their protection from harm in the eyes of the law, is not the same thing as supporting the genetic home-team.

But that is not the subject of this topic. The subject is how to deal with posters who commit crimes by their words according to the laws of some, but not all, of the countries in which a website like this is used.
The question is more of how to deal with the laws of a country.

I don't know what country you live in nor do I know the law(s) to which you refer. But if such laws suppress free speech, especially in a forum such as this, which fall short of inciting violence, then I suggest you live in a repressive regime and it is the laws which need to change.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!

Steve3007
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Steve3007 » November 3rd, 2018, 6:39 pm

If I lived in a country which regarded the declaration that certain people are not actually people (and do not have the right to protection from violent attack that personhood affords) as an incitement to violence and which therefore outlawed such declarations, would you regard me as living under a repressive regime?

Jklint
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Jklint » November 3rd, 2018, 7:17 pm

Who cares since people like these are ubiquitous and will always be around. The worst thing to do is force them underground. What disgusts me even more is the assumed purity of the politically correct as if it were a signature of their moral enlightenment.

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Greta
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Greta » November 3rd, 2018, 11:42 pm

If anyone feels that a post should be removed, in full or in part, they can always report it.

I've cut some grumpy hard right and hard left types some extra slack at times, to the chagrin of some. "Grumps" tend to help keep preachers and new wave freakout fauxlosophers somewhat accountable.

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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by Burning ghost » November 4th, 2018, 12:29 am

If someone speaks openly they can be challenged openly.

If offense is a problem then avoidance works well enough. I don’t see a direct problem with someone being racist unless they are walking up to people on the street telling them they are sub-human. If someone is asked about what they think and they respond honestly it should be respected (“respect” doesn’t mean “unchallenged”)
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A_Seagull
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Re: Posters whose words contravene the law of the land in which they live

Post by A_Seagull » November 4th, 2018, 12:30 am

Steve3007 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 6:39 pm
If I lived in a country which regarded the declaration that certain people are not actually people (and do not have the right to protection from violent attack that personhood affords) as an incitement to violence and which therefore outlawed such declarations, would you regard me as living under a repressive regime?
I think you are getting off-topic.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!

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