Gertie wrote:So while it's absolutely true that experiential states manifest in ways which result in an experiential sense of self, as experience can't be doubted, if you claim a Self is something more than that, the scientific evidence suggests that the notion of 'an experiencer' of the experiences isn't really what's going on.
Just to clarify -- an "experiencer" is just an experiential reactive body, and nothing more. Whereas a "self", is just an imaginary (non-existent) entity, falsely believed to be something more than an experiencer. The "self" only exists as an experienced thought.
RJG wrote:For it is not logically possible for us to choose or make our own experiences; thoughts/feelings/urges. We only just get to 'experience' them. That's all.
Fooloso4 wrote:That is not all. Experience is not simply what happens, it is how we interpret what happens…
And from which thoughts and feelings do we do this "interpreting" with?
Remember, everything we are conscious of, has already been
scripted for us. It is not logically possible to know our thoughts/feelings before we are conscious of them.
And again, if you think I am wrong, then please tell me which thought you are conscious of, that you are not yet conscious of.
Fooloso4 wrote:...the story we construct of what happens.
Since we have no thoughts of our own (as everyone of them has already been scripted for us), then from which thoughts do we "construct" our stories with?
We are not the authors (script-writers) of our thoughts, feelings, interpretations, or constructed stories. We are only just the experiencers of all these. Logically, it can be no other way.
RJG wrote:No offense to Wittgenstein, but he is as naive as Descartes. Both these gentlemen naively and falsely believe that we have the "ability", or the 'self-power', to actually doubt something, when in actuality, all any of us can only ever do is just 'experience' the doubt given to us.
Fooloso4 wrote:Perhaps you cannot help but see it that way but that is because you have constructed a story of ‘experience’ and cannot see things except in terms of the story you have framed it in.
None of us can do the impossible! None of us can "construct our own stories". Not only is it logically impossible to consciously "do" (cause/create/construct) anything, but we can't even 'experience' the causation (or 'doing') of anything.
We can only experience the 'effects'; the thoughts/sounds/sights/smells/etc, and never the thinking/hearing/seeing/smelling itself. -- We can only experience the experiences
, and never the creating/causing of the experiences.