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Minds and Events

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Burning ghost
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by Burning ghost » January 28th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Fdesilva wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 7:29 pm
Burning ghost wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 9:38 am
Fdesilva -

The term “I” is a symbolic expression used to communicate a conscious state to another perceived conscious state. “I” is not static nor completely unbound.
If you are watching a car do you feel yourself to be one and the same as the car or the car to be something other than your self? My experience is the car is something other than me as such in that conscious state the perceived car and my self "I" are both components of the conscious state. It would be impossible to have the state without the self. So as such I don't see how you can call "I" symbolic. Sure you can equate "I" to mean the totality of the experience yet when you go into the details you will still need to describe the perceiver.
I meant symbolic as in a written symbol derived from a sound/sign. There are no getting past words in a philosophical discussion. When it comes to this kind of topic though the facility of language must be addressed. Often people are fooled into thinking the words equate the experience.

Generally I express language as being the eulogy of experience.

What do think about solipsism?
AKA badgerjelly

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h_k_s
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by h_k_s » January 28th, 2019, 11:38 pm

Fdesilva wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 1:35 am
Category 1: Minds

I exist, and I am a mind. Therefore, Minds exist.

Category 2: Matter

I have feelings. These feelings originate from sensors in what I call my body. The sensors are receptive to stimulation from events created from within my body and from events created from outside my body. The stuff that bring about these events I shall categorise as matter. Thus, my body is also made of matter. Therefore, Matter exists.

Category 3: Space


My body needs Space and Matter in general needs Space. Matter can exist only in Space. Therefore, Space must exist.

Category 4: Time


My body needs Time to change and Matter in general needs Time for change. Matter can change only in Time. Therefore, Time must exist.

From the above observation I conclude that these four categories permeate each other and exist equally with none more abstract or less abstract than another.

Now to the question of the origin of these categories

Could it be that any one or more of these categories can be made from any one or more of the remaining categories? Could these categories transform from one to another?

Matter needs Space and Time for its existence, therefore without Space and Time, Matter will not exist, as such Matter could not have been the origin of Space and Time.

From physics it has been observed that Space and Time can give rise to Matter spontaneously. As such Matter maybe a result of a localized change to Space and Time.

So then, could Space and Time be the origin of everything else?

Again, from the theory of the Big Bang all Space, Time and Matter originated from this singular event. Therefore, Space and Time could not alone have brought about the other categories.

Since the Big Bang was an event, could it be that all things are made from events?
Where there is Space, Time and Matter there is always an event.
There can be no Space, Time or Matter without events.
In an instant all of Space and the Matter is nothing more or nothing less than a set of events. So then Space, Time and Matter is one and the same as a set of simultaneous events from one instant to the next.

From this observation the four categories can be reduced to two categories

Category 1: Minds

Category 2: Events

Now then, can Minds exist without events? We know that simultaneous events give rise to feelings in Minds. We know from special relativity simultaneous events cannot give rise to anything physical or material. Therefore, feelings cannot be physical or material. Now as feelings are a part of Minds, we must conclude Minds are not physical.

Now can the Mind exist without feelings OR does feelings create the Mind, that is one and the same as the Mind?

If feeling create the Mind then as feelings are created by events then Space, Time and Matter which we have concluded is the same as events, must also have feeling and thus be one and the same as a Mind.

Thus, we would need to conclude a rock has a Mind or is part of a Mind to the same extent that my brain is a Mind or is part of a Mind.

This conclusion is not palatable as such let’s consider the OTHER alternative.

Now if a Mind can exist without feeling then we also know that the Mind can create events (e.g. throw a rock, move a finger).

So then given that the mind can create events then the Big Bang (The Event) could have originated from The Mind in order to evoke feelings in other minds.

These other minds may have also been created by The Mind.
Time does not exist.

We live in the present. There is only the present.

You cannot accelerate to the future nor go back to the past therefore the future and the past do not exist, and furthermore therefore time does also not exist.

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Re: Minds and Events

Post by Fdesilva » January 29th, 2019, 2:33 am

Burning ghost wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 10:58 pm
Fdesilva wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 7:29 pm


If you are watching a car do you feel yourself to be one and the same as the car or the car to be something other than your self? My experience is the car is something other than me as such in that conscious state the perceived car and my self "I" are both components of the conscious state. It would be impossible to have the state without the self. So as such I don't see how you can call "I" symbolic. Sure you can equate "I" to mean the totality of the experience yet when you go into the details you will still need to describe the perceiver.
I meant symbolic as in a written symbol derived from a sound/sign. There are no getting past words in a philosophical discussion. When it comes to this kind of topic though the facility of language must be addressed. Often people are fooled into thinking the words equate the experience.

Generally I express language as being the eulogy of experience.

What do think about solipsism?
Solipsism is interesting and it helps us to realise that we cannot discard the mental (conscious experience) as illusions. I think in the past when instruments were not available the discrepancy between the mental "image" of objects created by sense data and the objects itself was not detectable. The information from different sense data (sound/vision) agree with each other. With the development of instruments it can be seen that the mental image and the real object do not match. The study of consciousness is to reconcile the two views. The sad thing is many have started to ignore the mental as such there is no real progress taking place.

Fdesilva
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by Fdesilva » January 29th, 2019, 2:37 am

h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:38 pm
Time does not exist.

We live in the present. There is only the present.

You cannot accelerate to the future nor go back to the past therefore the future and the past do not exist, and furthermore therefore time does also not exist.
How about music? Music can exist only across time. Just as vision can exist only across space.

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h_k_s
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by h_k_s » January 30th, 2019, 11:44 pm

Fdesilva wrote:
January 29th, 2019, 2:37 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:38 pm
Time does not exist.

We live in the present. There is only the present.

You cannot accelerate to the future nor go back to the past therefore the future and the past do not exist, and furthermore therefore time does also not exist.
How about music? Music can exist only across time. Just as vision can exist only across space.
Music is a physical phenomenon consisting of vibrations of energy through a fluid medium like water or air.

Music cannot exist in a vacuum however so it does not travel through empty space.

Even if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it.

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Re: Minds and Events

Post by h_k_s » January 30th, 2019, 11:46 pm

Fdesilva wrote:
January 29th, 2019, 2:37 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:38 pm
Time does not exist.

We live in the present. There is only the present.

You cannot accelerate to the future nor go back to the past therefore the future and the past do not exist, and furthermore therefore time does also not exist.
How about music? Music can exist only across time. Just as vision can exist only across space.
Vision is the seeing by animals of visible light radiation through any clear medium or space.

Light still exists even if nobody sees it.

Fdesilva
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by Fdesilva » January 31st, 2019, 2:59 am

h_k_s wrote:
January 30th, 2019, 11:46 pm
Fdesilva wrote:
January 29th, 2019, 2:37 am

How about music? Music can exist only across time. Just as vision can exist only across space.
Vision is the seeing by animals of visible light radiation through any clear medium or space.

Light still exists even if nobody sees it.
Vision is part of the conscious experience. The experience of light is part of vision but not its totality. In a vision we see objects. These objects we recognise has properties of length, height, width. These together is called space. Movement is part of the conscious experience. We experience time via the ability to move (our bodies) around objects or movement in space. Music on learning further properties of sound we realise must span time. As such the "now" is experience not in zero time but rather in 4 Dimensions that spans time and space.

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Re: Minds and Events

Post by h_k_s » February 1st, 2019, 12:33 am

Fdesilva wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 2:59 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 30th, 2019, 11:46 pm


Vision is the seeing by animals of visible light radiation through any clear medium or space.

Light still exists even if nobody sees it.
Vision is part of the conscious experience. The experience of light is part of vision but not its totality. In a vision we see objects. These objects we recognise has properties of length, height, width. These together is called space. Movement is part of the conscious experience. We experience time via the ability to move (our bodies) around objects or movement in space. Music on learning further properties of sound we realise must span time. As such the "now" is experience not in zero time but rather in 4 Dimensions that spans time and space.
If you say so.

I don't see a lot (none) of documentation in your opinion however.

It sounds more like a complex hypothesis than anything else.

Fdesilva
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Re: Minds and Events

Post by Fdesilva » February 1st, 2019, 3:38 pm

h_k_s wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:33 am
Fdesilva wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 2:59 am


Vision is part of the conscious experience. The experience of light is part of vision but not its totality. In a vision we see objects. These objects we recognise has properties of length, height, width. These together is called space. Movement is part of the conscious experience. We experience time via the ability to move (our bodies) around objects or movement in space. Music on learning further properties of sound we realise must span time. As such the "now" is experience not in zero time but rather in 4 Dimensions that spans time and space.
If you say so.

I don't see a lot (none) of documentation in your opinion however.

It sounds more like a complex hypothesis than anything else.
What I saying I say it as an axiom. It needs to be self evident to the reader. That is it needs to be judged in relation to once own conscious experiance. As such if it is not self evident to you, what that means is in some way your conscious experiance differs from mine.

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Re: Minds and Events

Post by h_k_s » February 15th, 2019, 8:38 am

Fdesilva wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:38 pm
h_k_s wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:33 am


If you say so.

I don't see a lot (none) of documentation in your opinion however.

It sounds more like a complex hypothesis than anything else.
What I saying I say it as an axiom. It needs to be self evident to the reader. That is it needs to be judged in relation to once own conscious experiance. As such if it is not self evident to you, what that means is in some way your conscious experiance differs from mine.
So do you really think a-priori and a-posteriori are that easy to circumvent ??

And also, if your opening statement contains conflicts of a-posteriori then you cannot simply ignore this. It means you have a contradiction included in your assumptions.

You cannot philosophize yourself out of an inherent contradiction. It's just a mental mess rather than a thought experiment.

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