Objective vs Subjective Truth

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RJG
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:So on my view, truth value is subjective. The notion of it being objective is a category error.
Terrapin Station wrote:Otherwise you can explain how I "defeat my own argument."
If the truth value of "truth value is subjective" is subjective, then you undercut (defeat) your own words. Then there is no (objective) truth to what you say.

Terrapin Station wrote:If the explanation ignores stuff I wrote in my explanation above, though, you get the buzzer.
Lol, maybe i missed something, and if so, then hit the buzzer on me. I was just referring to the blanket statement you made, which defeats itself.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: January 27th, 2020, 10:01 am
Terrapin Station wrote:So on my view, truth value is subjective. The notion of it being objective is a category error.
Terrapin Station wrote:Otherwise you can explain how I "defeat my own argument."
If the truth value of "truth value is subjective" is subjective, then you undercut (defeat) your own words. Then there is no (objective) truth to what you say.
It's ridiculous to say that "undercuts" what I'm saying. It IS exactly what I'm saying. The whole notion of "objective truth" is a category error.

How would something being exactly what I'm saying "undercut" what I'm saying? lol
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RJG
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:The whole notion of "objective truth" is a category error.
Is this statement objectively true? ...or not-objectively true?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: January 27th, 2020, 10:17 am
Terrapin Station wrote:The whole notion of "objective truth" is a category error.
Is this statement objectively true? ...or not-objectively true?
It should be pretty obvious to you, if I'd say that "objective truth is a category error," that I'd say no statement is objectively true. How could that NOT be obvious to you?

Truth value is a subjective assessment.

Trying to parse is is like trying to parse soundwaves as food. And continuing to ask about it is like saying, "Is this sound food?"
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

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Oops--typo: Trying to parse truth as objective is like trying to parse soundwaves as food.
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RJG
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:Truth value is a subjective assessment.
...including this one?

If yes, then you defeat your own words. As a fellow logician, I don't know why you can't see this simple logical contradiction that you are making.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: January 27th, 2020, 10:31 am
Terrapin Station wrote:Truth value is a subjective assessment.
...including this one?

If yes, then you defeat your own words. As a fellow logician, I don't know why you can't see this simple logical contradiction that you are making.
The problem here, due to you not reading/understanding/absorbing what I wrote in my first post in this thread (that you first responded to), is that you're not able to look at this from outside of a framework that insists that "truth" must be (that is, that it necessarily has a connotation of being) objective.

I'd explained a different framework in my initial post. You don't have to agree with me, of course, but it's important that you be able to understand it, especially if you're going to critique it. Critiquing it by essentially noting that I have a different view than you do doesn't work. You have to critique it from "inside" the view being proposed.

At any rate, if you want to suggest the contradiction I'm forwarding, where you want to claim it's not simply a matter of you not being able to grok the framework I described, you're welcome to tell me what the P is that I'm both asserting and denying unequivocally.
GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 27th, 2020, 10:46 am
The problem here, due to you not reading/understanding/absorbing what I wrote in my first post in this thread (that you first responded to), is that you're not able to look at this from outside of a framework that insists that "truth" must be (that is, that it necessarily has a connotation of being) objective.
"Truth" does not "necessarily have a connotation of being objective." "I have a headache" may be true, but it is not objective (because its truth conditions are not publicly accessible).
At any rate, if you want to suggest the contradiction I'm forwarding, where you want to claim it's not simply a matter of you not being able to grok the framework I described, you're welcome to tell me what the P is that I'm both asserting and denying unequivocally.
Your thesis is not precisely self-contradictory, but it is (as RJG) said, self-defeating. "Truth value is a subjective assessment" appears to be framed as a universal. If so, then whether it, itself, is true or false is a subjective assessment. Hence you cannot claim it to be true for anyone but you, and it gives no one any reason to adopt it.

The main problem with this thesis of yours is that you have adopted idiosyncratic definitions to "objective" and "subjective," which definitions render those terms descriptively useless. I believe I gave the standard definition previously:

"2a: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective
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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 »

Well lets look at it!
1a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

2a: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind.

d: relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence —used chiefly in medieval philosophy


It should be obvious to anyone with a brain that "objective" is nothing more than an aspiration, since it is not possible to achieve it, unless you are god. Maybe not even then.

1a
Since facts can only reside in the mind, and be "dealt" with by human subjects it cannot be possible with all surety to eliminate personal "distortions". The term "as perceived" brings with it a host of problems.

2a
This is a little more promising. The idea that there can be things that exist independently outside the human mind and separate from the human body is appealing. In fact it is a thing we take for granted everyday. The object in the view of my camera, the car I am about to enter.
We can get others to agree these things exist and are objects in the world.
So far so good.
But though we can agree that these things exist, there is nothing to say that they all have the same meaning for us. And when we start to use terms like phenomena to describe the objects of the world "objectivity" breaks down. Witness statements show that the most basic facts of our perception are coloured and filled-in by our prejudices. It's all very well if the object is a white cube in white light, but descriptions of even that can break down when adjectives are employed to describe it.

Objectivity is an aspiration that requires agreement.

d.
Medieval says it all.

When it comes to had objects in the world agreement should be easy enough.
The big trouble comes when so foo comes along and tries to apply the term "objective" to morality. This shows two tendencies; an ignorance of the implications of the sensible world and the fact that there are other people in it; and a total narcissistic world view, arrogant and insensible of the rest of humanity.
Any criticism that everyone should follow a strict set of moral guidelines is usually followed by a lot of foot stamping, unless they have power and what follows often has something to do with marching and book burning followed by exterminations.
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Steve3007 »

Sculptor1 wrote:...But though we can agree that these things exist, there is nothing to say that they all have the same meaning for us. And when we start to use terms like phenomena to describe the objects of the world "objectivity" breaks down. Witness statements show that the most basic facts of our perception are coloured and filled-in by our prejudices. It's all very well if the object is a white cube in white light, but descriptions of even that can break down when adjectives are employed to describe it....
I think the above (the observation that all perceptions are, to some extent, different from each other) is in fact a key part of the definition of objectivity. I think objectivity is a property of propositions. I agree with G E Morton's understanding of objective propositions (stated several times previously) as propositions whose means of verification or falsification is proposed to be publicly available. I add that objective propositions are generally, one way or another, propositions about objects. The concept of an "object" is a thing that we propose to be the cause of an indefinitely large number of possible perceptions by ourselves and others. It is the thing that all of those potential and actual perceptions have in common.

That last sentence is the key one to the point I'm making here. The concept of an "object" recognises that all those perceptions are different. None of them are exactly the same as each other. But whatever it is that they do have in common: that's the essence of the object.

I think the same principle also applies to some concepts that we don't normally think of as objects. "Time" for example is (in my view) the thing that all "clocks" have in common.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

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GE Morton wrote: January 27th, 2020, 7:54 pm Your thesis is not precisely self-contradictory, but it is (as RJG) said, self-defeating. "Truth value is a subjective assessment" appears to be framed as a universal.
So, if you actually read and understood my first post on this, what did I say about the relationship between truth and facts?
The main problem with this thesis of yours is that you have adopted idiosyncratic definitions to "objective" and "subjective,"
Whether it's idiosyncratic or not (it isn't, but we're going to get nowhere arguing about that), it's necessary to critique my comments under the framework of my comments, using the definitions I use.

After all, it's not as if no philosopher uses idiosyncratic definitions for anything. And it's not as if there's any problem with this. It's very standard in the field. You can't just plow ahead and critique their views under alternate, non-idiosyncratic definitions. You have to use the definitions they're using, the framework they're using.
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RJG
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:The whole notion of "objective truth" is a category error.
Is this statement you make "objectively true"? ...or is it just a "category error"?

If your words are just a "category error" (or not-objectively true), then what value is there for us to listen to what you say? -- Hence, the self-defeat-ion of your own words.
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

GE Morton wrote: January 27th, 2020, 7:54 pm
By the way, the terminology we use, exactly how we define terms, etc. is irrelevant ultimately. What matters is what we're claiming is the case, whatever terminology we're using for it.
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: January 28th, 2020, 9:33 am
Terrapin Station wrote:The whole notion of "objective truth" is a category error.
Is this statement you make "objectively true"? ...or is it just a "category error"?

If your words are just a "category error" (or not-objectively true), then what value is there for us to listen to what you say? -- Hence, the self-defeat-ion of your own words.
If the only reason you are interested in what anyone says is that you believe that somehow what they say has a property that obtains extramentally that amounts to meanings having a particular relation with what's the case, then you have a problem, because there's no such extramental property.
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RJG
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:If the only reason you are interested in what anyone says is that you believe that somehow what they say has a property that obtains extramentally that amounts to meanings having a particular relation with what's the case, then you have a problem, because there's no such extramental property.
Firstly, if person X says "There is no real truth in what I say" ...then do we really want to waste our time listening to what he says?

Secondly, if person X truly believes what he says is 'true', then he contradicts himself, ...for then he would be claiming that the 'truth' of his statement is 'not-truth'. In other words, he invalidates (defeats) his own argument.

*****
Final point -- Subjectivity without 'objectivity' is a logical impossibility. Without an 'objective' reference point, there could be no 'subjective' view. ("Without a place to stand, no stand could be made"). Those claiming "everything is subjective" are speaking non-sensically (and defeat their own words).
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