Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

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LuckyR
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by LuckyR »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:54 am Here's a question:

Is it ethical to fool another person into believing that you are member of the opposite SEX? Isn't that what transgenders are doing? They aren't fooling others about their GENDER. They are confusing others about their SEX.
It varies. Currently transgenderism is perfectly ethical in progressive western societies. It is unethical in the majority of the world, though not in western democracies.

Please explain the "fooling" that you have obverved.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:54 am Here's a question:

Is it ethical to fool another person into believing that you are member of the opposite SEX? Isn't that what transgenders are doing? They aren't fooling others about their GENDER. They are confusing others about their SEX.
Have you embarrassed yourself in a trannie bar or something??
I knew a guy who did that once.
Maybe you should drink less?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sy Borg »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:34 am
Greta wrote: September 6th, 2019, 5:54 pm To not show courtesy as described above by Lucky is anti-social and ignorant behaviour. How many of us are arrogant and self important enough to "tell it like it is" to transgenders, the obese, the ugly, the insecure, the weak and the poor?
Isn't everyone who is debating on these philosophy forums and others trying to "tell it like it is"? People don't seem to mind telling Christians and other religious folk that their god doesn't exist. It seems to me that people are just fine telling other how it is but get their panties tied in a knot if someone tells them how it is. The way you find out what really is is by using reason and logic.
Don't get your panties in a know about it. I am just amazed at people today :lol:

A person who cannot tell the difference between philosophical debate and being ignorant and intrusive towards strangers lacks the depth to contibute meaningfully to a philosophy forum.

You might as well go into the street and start punching people in the face because it's okay for people to do it in a boxing ring.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Trajk Logik »

LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 11:24 am
Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:54 am Here's a question:

Is it ethical to fool another person into believing that you are member of the opposite SEX? Isn't that what transgenders are doing? They aren't fooling others about their GENDER. They are confusing others about their SEX.
It varies. Currently transgenderism is perfectly ethical in progressive western societies. It is unethical in the majority of the world, though not in western democracies.

Please explain the "fooling" that you have obverved.
I think the point of the post flew over your head. If gender is a social consruct and not the same as sex, then why are people fooled by their sex? Are they a male or female?

If you havent been fooled as to what sex a transgender is by looking at pictures of them then you probably arent familiar enuff of this topic to discuss it.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Trajk Logik »

Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 5:39 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:34 am

Isn't everyone who is debating on these philosophy forums and others trying to "tell it like it is"? People don't seem to mind telling Christians and other religious folk that their god doesn't exist. It seems to me that people are just fine telling other how it is but get their panties tied in a knot if someone tells them how it is. The way you find out what really is is by using reason and logic.
Don't get your panties in a know about it. I am just amazed at people today :lol:

A person who cannot tell the difference between philosophical debate and being ignorant and intrusive towards strangers lacks the depth to contibute meaningfully to a philosophy forum.

You might as well go into the street and start punching people in the face because it's okay for people to do it in a boxing ring.
This is like claiming that the question about the existence of God is a religious question, not a scientific one. If someone makes a claim about some aspect of nature, and they are making a scientific claim. Ensign to the claims were subject to criticism. The claim shouldn't get upset because their claim is being criticized. An appeal to emotions is illogical and unreasonable and shouldn't be involved in any philosophical debate.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sy Borg »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:10 pm
Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 5:39 pm

Don't get your panties in a know about it. I am just amazed at people today :lol:

A person who cannot tell the difference between philosophical debate and being ignorant and intrusive towards strangers lacks the depth to contribute meaningfully to a philosophy forum.

You might as well go into the street and start punching people in the face because it's okay for people to do it in a boxing ring.
This is like claiming that the question about the existence of God is a religious question, not a scientific one. If someone makes a claim about some aspect of nature, and they are making a scientific claim. Ensign to the claims were subject to criticism. The claim shouldn't get upset because their claim is being criticized. An appeal to emotions is illogical and unreasonable and shouldn't be involved in any philosophical debate.
A philosophical discussion allows everything. I only referred to the social situation.

If you were introduced to a transperson, would you feel morally and ethically entitled to publicly expose that person as "false"? If so, perhaps we philosophical types should extend our "reality services" to the obese as well?
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LuckyR
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by LuckyR »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm
LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 11:24 am

It varies. Currently transgenderism is perfectly ethical in progressive western societies. It is unethical in the majority of the world, though not in western democracies.

Please explain the "fooling" that you have obverved.
I think the point of the post flew over your head. If gender is a social consruct and not the same as sex, then why are people fooled by their sex? Are they a male or female?

If you havent been fooled as to what sex a transgender is by looking at pictures of them then you probably arent familiar enuff of this topic to discuss it.
Since I interact with transgender folks professionally on a fairly routine basis, I don't have to use the "looking at pictures of them" trope, thank you very much.

So rather than guess at my level of experience (an area of unfamiliarity for you) why don't you answer my query about your experience (on which you are the world's expert) about personally getting fooled.
"As usual... it depends."
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Trajk Logik
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Trajk Logik »

Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:55 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:10 pm
This is like claiming that the question about the existence of God is a religious question, not a scientific one. If someone makes a claim about some aspect of nature, and they are making a scientific claim. Ensign to the claims were subject to criticism. The claim shouldn't get upset because their claim is being criticized. An appeal to emotions is illogical and unreasonable and shouldn't be involved in any philosophical debate.
A philosophical discussion allows everything. I only referred to the social situation.

If you were introduced to a transperson, would you feel morally and ethically entitled to publicly expose that person as "false"? If so, perhaps we philosophical types should extend our "reality services" to the obese as well?
If the person told me that they are something that they quite obviously aren't, and then told me that I had to refer to them as the person that they aren't then I would politely tell them "No."

If a person claims to be the president of the United States and they quite obviously aren't and they told you that you had to refer to them as Mr. President or they're feelings get hurt, then what would you say?

It's not a question of whether I feel morally entitled. Morality is subjective. It is a scientific question of whether they are actually a woman or a man. Scientific claims are subject to criticism. Just like the religious saying that their claims aren't scientific in order to avoid criticism. So don't go making scientific claims and not expect to be criticized. It really is that simple.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Trajk Logik »

LuckyR wrote: September 9th, 2019, 2:35 am
Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm
I think the point of the post flew over your head. If gender is a social consruct and not the same as sex, then why are people fooled by their sex? Are they a male or female?

If you havent been fooled as to what sex a transgender is by looking at pictures of them then you probably arent familiar enuff of this topic to discuss it.
Since I interact with transgender folks professionally on a fairly routine basis, I don't have to use the "looking at pictures of them" trope, thank you very much.

So rather than guess at my level of experience (an area of unfamiliarity for you) why don't you answer my query about your experience (on which you are the world's expert) about personally getting fooled.
Like I said, the point of the post flew over your head.

Why don't you try addressing the point of the post rather than try to ask questions with obvious answers to them.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Trajk Logik »

Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:55 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:10 pm
This is like claiming that the question about the existence of God is a religious question, not a scientific one. If someone makes a claim about some aspect of nature, and they are making a scientific claim. Ensign to the claims were subject to criticism. The claim shouldn't get upset because their claim is being criticized. An appeal to emotions is illogical and unreasonable and shouldn't be involved in any philosophical debate.
A philosophical discussion allows everything. I only referred to the social situation.

If you were introduced to a transperson, would you feel morally and ethically entitled to publicly expose that person as "false"? If so, perhaps we philosophical types should extend our "reality services" to the obese as well?
Is it ethical to tell an anorexic that you agree with them that they are overweight and that they should lose more weight? Of course not. This would be reinforcing their delusion to where they do themselves more harm. The same goes for transgenders. You don't reinforce delusions that lead to harm, like cutting body parts off and making holes where there were none and then having to use a stent to keep the wound open.
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Greenbone
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Greenbone »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:39 am Your definition is way too general. Your definition is not what most people use. And the fact that most people use it doesn't make it right. That would be an appeal to popularity which is a logical fallacy. Mass delusions are possible.

If gender is the appearance and behavior people choose to display, then does that include playing basketball, riding a bike, wearing a hat, etc.? Does gender include EVERY human appearance and behavior then you've just defined gender into meaninglessness. Essentially every human behavior is "gender". That makes no sense.
It might not be the definition that other people think they have, but I'm saying it's implicitly the only definition that people use. I'm not appealing to popularity; I'm appealing to the fact that using a stricter definition in your daily life would be absurd. If you define gender as something biological, then you have to concede to not knowing pretty much anybody's gender. "Oh but you can make an educated guess based on appearance/behavior." Exactly my point. Those are the criteria gender distinctions are actually based on.

I don't know what you mean when you ask if gender includes every human behavior. Gender is a classification and the criteria for classification are collectively defined by society.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 9th, 2019, 8:15 am
Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:55 pm
A philosophical discussion allows everything. I only referred to the social situation.

If you were introduced to a transperson, would you feel morally and ethically entitled to publicly expose that person as "false"? If so, perhaps we philosophical types should extend our "reality services" to the obese as well?
Is it ethical to tell an anorexic that you agree with them that they are overweight and that they should lose more weight? Of course not. This would be reinforcing their delusion to where they do themselves more harm. The same goes for transgenders. You don't reinforce delusions that lead to harm, like cutting body parts off and making holes where there were none and then having to use a stent to keep the wound open.
This topic is not related to dietary disorders.
It is interesting that you are choosing to conflate the two distinct things.
But before you look up the philosophical fallacy of false analogy I would ask some questions of you.
It was once common enough during the time when homosexuality was illegal that homosexuality was freely conflated with pederasty to denigrate the love between men. I image you are the type of person that would avail himself of that opportunity - to take cheap shots by false association. How do you feel about that suggestion?
I also wonder why you seem so obsessed with this particular question. DO you feel threatened by difference?
Are you harbouring any suppressed feelings on or concerned with your sexuality? I not your avatar choice. Do you see yourself as Darth Vader, or the hapless victim?
Just how Tragik are you?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sy Borg »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 9th, 2019, 8:09 am
Greta wrote: September 8th, 2019, 7:55 pm
A philosophical discussion allows everything. I only referred to the social situation.

If you were introduced to a transperson, would you feel morally and ethically entitled to publicly expose that person as "false"? If so, perhaps we philosophical types should extend our "reality services" to the obese as well?
If the person told me that they are something that they quite obviously aren't, and then told me that I had to refer to them as the person that they aren't then I would politely tell them "No."
:lol: Politely tell people that they are scum, you mean. That is how a transperson would interpret your refusal to accept their identity. You speak as though they decide to change sex based on a weekend whim rather than a lifetime of internal struggle.

Or perhaps we should all step right up for Trajik Logik's Reality Services!

Worried that you might not quite be in touch with reality? Never mind, Trajik Logik will put you straight! You can trust TL to use his superior cognition to instantly cure you of your delusions!


- Trans: "Hello. My name is Susan."

- Trajik Logik: "You can't be called Susan? You're are queer bloke!"


- Fat person: "Hello, I'd like to try out for the touch football team.'

- Trajik Logik" "You? Get outta here, Porky!"


Most who live examined lives are aware that they cannot judge strangers too quickly because only relative superficialities are on display, so they have no way of understanding the history behind the other person's situation.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 »

- Trans: "Hello. My name is Susan."

- Trajik Logik: "You can't be called Susan? You're are queer bloke!"


- Fat person: "Hello, I'd like to try out for the touch football team.'

- Trajik Logik" "You? Get outta here, Porky!"

Trans; "But Trajik, why do you keep looking at me?"

- Trajik Logik"Cos you look like a girl"

- Trans"Thank you. I feel like a woman, and I have breasts too."

- Trajik Logik"Can I look?"

- Trans"You naughty boy!"

- Trajik Logik"I don't want anyone seeing us."

- Trans"Sure. Want to come over to my place?"

- Trajik Logik"I'm scared, but oddly attracted."

- Trans"Cum over!"

- Trajik Logik"Mummy!!!!"

- Trans"...
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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Trajk Logik wrote: September 8th, 2019, 10:54 am Here's a question:

Is it ethical to fool another person into believing that you are member of the opposite SEX? Isn't that what transgenders are doing? They aren't fooling others about their GENDER. They are confusing others about their SEX.
Why are you so worried.
Eveyone tries to fool others all the time.
Trump is trying to fool people he is a President
People, like him, wear suits to try to prove they are better than others; women wear make-up. There is an entire entertainments industry where people pretend to be what they are not, and do things that are fake.
When all the time we are all just naked apes
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