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Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm

h_k_s wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:19 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:26 pm


I disagree. No one would chose to be gay and voluntarily place themselves at the mercy of bullies and jokers.
I've met plenty of gay people of both sexes and for all of them the occasion of coming-out was always traumatic. For them it mattered not whether their gayness was determined before birth, at birth, or shortly after. What they all agree upon is that they had no choice whatever.
I shall assume you are heterosexual.
Did you chose to be heterosexual? I did not. One day I woke up thinking about breasts, and the wonderful curves of the female form. The very sight or thought of female nudity caused by body to react with an erection. I had no control over this, except to try and think about other things. Conversations with gay men render similar experiences, except they were attracted to other men.
I wonder if you stopped and thought about that time in your own adolescence that you would also agree that you had no choice about your sexual orientation.
If you simply keep repeating yourself then according to Aristotle this is a fallacy of vociferousness. The Sophists used it a lot at trials in the Agora of Athens.
I'll keep repeating my arguments, until you at least try to attempt to address them.
You might also try to think about your own sexual awakening, and ask whether or not you think you chose your sexual orientation.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 18th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Felix wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Yes, I agree, Sculptor1, it was certainly not social indoctrination that ingrained hetersexual tendencies in me, that to me is the height of pop psychology.
Yes, indeed. Thankfully as a society, at least in the UK, we are a long way from Gays being forced to "take the cure", which is as absurd as it gets. With the "gaynest parliament" in the world the UK is not likely to loose another great mind like Alan Turing from the stigma of homosexuality.

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Felix
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 18th, 2019, 4:16 pm

Oh, that's right, I forgot, throughout the writings of Plato and Aristotle they make the statement, "I cannot form an opinion on such-and-such subject because I have not seen a University study on it."
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 18th, 2019, 6:32 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm
So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth.

A person can also look at an apple and call it an orange.
Except that the pre hormone treatment brain scans of transpersons indicate that their brains are much more like the brains of the sex they identify with than the brains of the sex they were born as. So something is different in the key organ of identity. And many of them feel better when post op or in the accepted role as the other sex. I do not think any of this is simple. Both of the main loud sides on this issue are very binary. Everyone who says they are sex X are that sex, is one side. And the other side is very much, the sex you are born with is it, period. Neither of these loud sides like to notice that things are more complicated and not so easy to sort out and make a simple rule around.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 18th, 2019, 8:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 6:32 pm
Except that the pre hormone treatment brain scans of transpersons indicate that their brains are much more like the brains of the sex they identify with than the brains of the sex they were born as.
This assertion seems to be false:

"The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized.

The present study does not support the dogma that MtF-TR have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain[.]"


Source: Sex Dimorphism of the Brain in Male-to-Female Transsexuals
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 19th, 2019, 3:10 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm
h_k_s wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:19 pm


If you simply keep repeating yourself then according to Aristotle this is a fallacy of vociferousness. The Sophists used it a lot at trials in the Agora of Athens.
I'll keep repeating my arguments, until you at least try to attempt to address them.
You might also try to think about your own sexual awakening, and ask whether or not you think you chose your sexual orientation.
Anecdote while a fair starting point is insufficient to answer global questions and issues.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 19th, 2019, 4:12 pm

h_k_s wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 3:10 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm


I'll keep repeating my arguments, until you at least try to attempt to address them.
You might also try to think about your own sexual awakening, and ask whether or not you think you chose your sexual orientation.
Anecdote while a fair starting point is insufficient to answer global questions and issues.
A small part of my statement contained a supporting anecdote. Whilst you seem to have nothing but out-of-date prejudices.
It is clear you have nothing here to support your inflammatory assertion

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 20th, 2019, 8:37 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm
h_k_s wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:19 pm


If you simply keep repeating yourself then according to Aristotle this is a fallacy of vociferousness. The Sophists used it a lot at trials in the Agora of Athens.
I'll keep repeating my arguments, until you at least try to attempt to address them.
You might also try to think about your own sexual awakening, and ask whether or not you think you chose your sexual orientation.
I think sexual orientation is a choice, based on a number of observations, knowledge I have gained through personal insights and personal experience. I wouldn't use that however to argue that there is truth in my opinion because I know others often hold a different opinion and they want to impose it as if it were a truth. (Again, I respect others' right ti call an apple an orange.)

I think we should stay away from trying to solve that question here and if you want to discuss it, starting your own topic on it may be a good idea.
I am a frog. I choose to be a frog. I make big leaps.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 20th, 2019, 4:11 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 8:37 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm


I'll keep repeating my arguments, until you at least try to attempt to address them.
You might also try to think about your own sexual awakening, and ask whether or not you think you chose your sexual orientation.
I think sexual orientation is a choice, based on a number of observations, knowledge I have gained through personal insights and personal experience. I wouldn't use that however to argue that there is truth in my opinion because I know others often hold a different opinion and they want to impose it as if it were a truth. (Again, I respect others' right ti call an apple an orange.)

I think we should stay away from trying to solve that question here and if you want to discuss it, starting your own topic on it may be a good idea.
I think you will find that science and psychology is united in the simple fact that your opinion is false, and that any "choice" is limited to nuance and not to base orientation.
You can no more chose to be a heterosexual male than you can chose to be a frog.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 20th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 8:37 am
I think we should stay away from tying to solve that question here and if you want to discuss it, starting your own topic on it may be a good idea.
You will not "solve" your question as it is based on a fallacy.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 20th, 2019, 6:34 pm

Empiricist-Bruno: "I think sexual orientation is a choice."

Just out of curiousity, at what age do you suppose one makes this choice? - or perhaps it's a prenatal choice?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 20th, 2019, 7:01 pm

Mental illness has lots of prejudices going against it. If you can deny your illness and say everything is fine then you can escape the prejudices that come along with mental illness.

This is why I generally support the lying science that says sexuality isn't a choice. If it isn't your sick or out of the ordinary choice that make you gay, then how can we judge you for it or have a prejudice against you for suffering from a mental illness? As you escape judgment, you escape prejudice against you. I can see that this lie is vital to you and I will not challenge or argue against this lie before you in any way, not because I am wrong but because you apear to need me to be wrong and I am fine with that.

What's wrong with choosing to be a frog, why can't I do that? Just watch me rename my signature.

I love people who say that their sexuality is their own choice and I somewhat pity the rest but this whole question is essentially based on the more basic question, "Are we free or pre-determined?" and answering that question is certainly not this thread's topic and would appreciate it if it didn't go that way.
I am a frog. I choose to be a frog. I make big leaps.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 20th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 4:12 pm
h_k_s wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 3:10 pm


Anecdote while a fair starting point is insufficient to answer global questions and issues.
A small part of my statement contained a supporting anecdote. Whilst you seem to have nothing but out-of-date prejudices.
It is clear you have nothing here to support your inflammatory assertion
Pot-kettle-black !!

Does an UP-TO-DATE prejudice trump and "out of date" one? Query that.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 20th, 2019, 8:24 pm

Empiricist-Bruno: "So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth." ... "I love people who say that their sexuality is their own choice"

In your first statement, you say that those who exercise free choice by choosing their own sexual identity are mentally ill, and yet in your second statement you say, "you love people who say their sexuality is their own choice."

Does this mean that you love people who are mentally ill? Presumably this includes yourself?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 20th, 2019, 9:13 pm

those who exercise free choice by choosing their own sexual identity are mentally ill
You are sure I meant to say something like that?@Felix
I doubt I had reached that conclusion.
I am a frog. I choose to be a frog. I make big leaps.

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