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Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 26th, 2019, 5:05 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 2:41 pm
Sculptor1,

You know I am a moderator here? This means I have the capacity to go in any one of your posts and modify it or delete it. I don't have the power to do this however because you follow the rules and I am accountable. But to dare me or challenge me that I can't do it because you think it can't be done since you can't do a similar thing yourself is puzzling to me.

I guess h_k_s has put his finger on the matter when he warned about sophists earlier in this thread.
You can threaten me, you can dodge, but you can't chose to be gay anymore than you can chose to change the colour of your eyes.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 26th, 2019, 7:31 pm

I once attended a comedy club where the comic bragged about having done a homosexual act for cash while still believing himself a straight guy.

Is being gay a gene condition so if you don't have it, whatever gay act you participate in do not imply you are gay? How far can you live the gay life without being gay? Is there no limit to that if you have the elusive straight gene? Maybe some people who believe themselves gay are in fact genetically straight?

This is what makes me believe that the gene theory regarding sexual orientation is a pack of lies that make people miss the point. I think it is fair to consider this kind of concept as perhaps mentally ill as well.
I am a frog. I choose to be a frog. I make big leaps.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 26th, 2019, 10:18 pm

By the way, as for the thread title, I don't think a concept can be mentally ill.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 26th, 2019, 10:39 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 7:31 pm
I once attended a comedy club where the comic bragged about having done a homosexual act for cash while still believing himself a straight guy.
Is being gay a gene condition so if you don't have it, whatever gay act you participate in do not imply you are gay? How far can you live the gay life without being gay? Is there no limit to that if you have the elusive straight gene? Maybe some people who believe themselves gay are in fact genetically straight?
A man is (strictly/fully) gay if and only if he is intrinsically and exclusively sexually attracted to and excited by male persons or bodies.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 26th, 2019, 10:48 pm

Consul wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 10:39 pm
A man is (strictly/fully) gay if and only if he is intrinsically and exclusively sexually attracted to and excited by male persons or bodies.
Whether you're intrinsically and exclusively sexually attracted to and excited by male persons/bodies or to/by female ones is definitely not a matter of free choice.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 27th, 2019, 4:19 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 7:31 pm
I once attended a comedy club where the comic bragged about having done a homosexual act for cash while still believing himself a straight guy.

Is being gay a gene condition so if you don't have it, whatever gay act you participate in do not imply you are gay? How far can you live the gay life without being gay? Is there no limit to that if you have the elusive straight gene? Maybe some people who believe themselves gay are in fact genetically straight?

This is what makes me believe that the gene theory regarding sexual orientation is a pack of lies that make people miss the point. I think it is fair to consider this kind of concept as perhaps mentally ill as well.
Ask any Thespian. Acting is not the same as reality.
You can chose to act.
Ian McKellan makes a great Gandalf, but that does not make him a wizard.
Any progress on your homosexuality yet?

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 27th, 2019, 6:10 pm

Consul wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 10:18 pm
By the way, as for the thread title, I don't think a concept can be mentally ill.
That is interesting...Do you think an idea or suggestion can be sick? Can I have sick ideas? Or do you think a plan can be sick? Can I have sick plans?

I might be relieved to learn that I cannot have that even though I believe that I have had that in the past before realizing what they were and working to distance myself from these concepts.

The idea of working on a new type of sexuality because blogger Sculptor1 wants me to do it, wouldn't that be a sick project?
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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 28th, 2019, 2:23 am

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 6:10 pm
That is interesting...Do you think an idea or suggestion can be sick? Can I have sick ideas? Or do you think a plan can be sick? Can I have sick plans?
It's a metaphor, but not literally. I am not sure it is a good metaphor. 'Poor' concept. Badly justified concept. A concept that leads to negative or positive effects.
I might be relieved to learn that I cannot have that even though I believe that I have had that in the past before realizing what they were and working to distance myself from these concepts.

The idea of working on a new type of sexuality because blogger Sculptor1 wants me to do it, wouldn't that be a sick project?
You might get sick. We could call it a gnarly project. Or an uncool one. Or a bummer project. But I don't think we get more information that just saying 'bad', and one also might be confusing.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 28th, 2019, 5:11 am

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 6:10 pm
Consul wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 10:18 pm
By the way, as for the thread title, I don't think a concept can be mentally ill.
That is interesting...Do you think an idea or suggestion can be sick? Can I have sick ideas? Or do you think a plan can be sick? Can I have sick plans?
No - not on a philosophy forum and be taken seriously.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 28th, 2019, 5:13 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 2:23 am
It's a metaphor, but not literally. I am not sure it is a good metaphor. 'Poor' concept. Badly justified concept. A concept that leads to negative or positive effects.
.

Obviously the choice of our metaphors are important. This one seems to condemn as insane all people who stray from the strict line of buttoned up heterosexuality. And as such the question is absurd.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 28th, 2019, 11:07 am

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 7:31 pm
I once attended a comedy club where the comic bragged about having done a homosexual act for cash while still believing himself a straight guy.

Is being gay a gene condition so if you don't have it, whatever gay act you participate in do not imply you are gay? How far can you live the gay life without being gay? Is there no limit to that if you have the elusive straight gene? Maybe some people who believe themselves gay are in fact genetically straight?

This is what makes me believe that the gene theory regarding sexual orientation is a pack of lies that make people miss the point. I think it is fair to consider this kind of concept as perhaps mentally ill as well.
The fact that you think some straight people might believe themselves to be gay makes you believe that gayness is not genetic? That's a very poor reason. First that some straight people might convince themselves they are gay is not mutually exclusive with gayness being genetic. People can fool themselves in all sorts of ways. The existence of hypochondriacs and Muchausen by proxy does not demonstrate that no one, including children, is sick. Further it may not be binary. Gay or not. There could be gradations, as the existence of bisexuals (of varying degrees and tendencies seems to indicate). But further, gayness could be genetic and some people convince themselves they are gay. Perhaps to avoid intimacy with the opposite sex for a variety of reasons. Perhaps because they were sexually abused by someone of the same sex and were told that's what they are.

There have been people who thought they were Napoleon and Jesus. This doesn't mean that those people did not exist.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 28th, 2019, 4:35 pm

"Transgender people are not mentally ill, the WHO decrees": https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/28/heal ... index.html
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Consul » May 28th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Consul wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 4:35 pm
"Transgender people are not mentally ill, the WHO decrees": https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/28/heal ... index.html
Well, but why is it not a case of clinical delusion when e.g a boy/man with a definitely and completely male body seriously believes that he is a girl/woman? Note that saying "I am a girl/woman" is relevantly different from saying "I desire/want to be(come) a girl/woman"! I do not regard a transsexual boy's/man's desire to be(come) female as a mental disorder.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Greta » May 28th, 2019, 5:34 pm

Consul wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 4:45 pm
Consul wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 4:35 pm
"Transgender people are not mentally ill, the WHO decrees": https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/28/heal ... index.html
Well, but why is it not a case of clinical delusion when e.g a boy/man with a definitely and completely male body seriously believes that he is a girl/woman? Note that saying "I am a girl/woman" is relevantly different from saying "I desire/want to be(come) a girl/woman"! I do not regard a transsexual boy's/man's desire to be(come) female as a mental disorder.
You would have to get inside their heads to understand. However, if someone makes this claim and then successfully transitions and lives a good life in that gender, who is to say that they were wrong? Certainly a female is not a man a male is not a woman in terms of the reproductive cells they produce but they are not saying that. They are saying that inside their heads they feel as if they are in the wrong gender. The actual terminology such people, who are at the very least going to be emotionally disturbed by their situation, is a moot point and should not be taken literally.

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Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 28th, 2019, 6:12 pm

Consul wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 4:45 pm
Consul wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 4:35 pm
"Transgender people are not mentally ill, the WHO decrees": https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/28/heal ... index.html
Well, but why is it not a case of clinical delusion when e.g a boy/man with a definitely and completely male body seriously believes that he is a girl/woman? Note that saying "I am a girl/woman" is relevantly different from saying "I desire/want to be(come) a girl/woman"! I do not regard a transsexual boy's/man's desire to be(come) female as a mental disorder.
Because their brain activity and structures are more like the sex they identify with....

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm

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