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Is Change Possible

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elucid
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Is Change Possible

Post by elucid » September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am

Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.

MAYA EL
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by MAYA EL » September 9th, 2019, 5:32 pm

Due to the lack of information in your post in regards to the reason for said questions I will give you the same in return.


I would like your comments on the following statements.

>>>Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.
False.


>>>>Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent<<<
False.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 » September 9th, 2019, 6:04 pm

elucid wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am
Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Change is possible since stasis is never possible.
A thing that exists can transform into something else. All things transform.
The human potential to notice all change is faulty and identification is therefore false since it cannot keep up with constant change.
A flower today is not the same flower that was yesterday, since it grows. But humans "identify" it as the "same" flower, it is changed.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 » September 9th, 2019, 6:05 pm

A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.

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Hereandnow
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow » September 9th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.

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Felix
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Felix » September 9th, 2019, 11:09 pm

Is change possible? Depends on where you are panhandling....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s » September 12th, 2019, 3:39 pm

elucid wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am
Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Note sure what if anything your O/P (original post) has to do with "change."

I thought you were going to talk about the classic issue of constant change on Earth and in the Heavens. This is a major philosophical topic.

Instead you started talking about Geometry and circles.

Not a very good title for your O/P then.

You should have called it "Of And About Circles In Geometry" instead. FYI.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s » September 12th, 2019, 3:42 pm

MAYA EL wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 5:32 pm
Due to the lack of information in your post in regards to the reason for said questions I will give you the same in return.


I would like your comments on the following statements.

>>>Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.
False.


>>>>Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent<<<
False.
Circles in Geometry are a fascinating topic.

All of us who have taken Geometry in school and/or college know what a circle is.

It is simply the loci of all points in a plane which are equidistant from any other given point.

This concept and definition never changes. Therefore all circles are similar, congruent, and alike.

I am guessing that this O/P (original poster) did not do too good in Geometry in school or college or at least does not remember much.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s » September 12th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.
Actually I agree with @Sculptor1 on this.

Math and Geometry are nonexistent abstractions of the human mind.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s » September 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Felix wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 11:09 pm
Is change possible? Depends on where you are panhandling....
With the rising popularity of debit and credit cards, change is almost nonexistent anymore.

But you are correct @Felix it all depends on where.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 » September 12th, 2019, 4:09 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow » September 12th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Sculptor1
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.
But if you look at the lamp from a sufficient distance, the features will disappear altogether. Are these features then abstractions, every one? Then what happens to the "thing" we call a lamp? If all of its features are dispositional features only, that is, the thing we call a lamp possesses the disposition to appear this way or that, given the changes in perspective, lighting, and general contextual conditions, how does the lamp remain a lamp at all?

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 » September 12th, 2019, 7:25 pm

elucid wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am
Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Circles do not exist except as concepts.
Change is constant. Circles are temporary

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 » September 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 6:55 pm
Sculptor1
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.
But if you look at the lamp from a sufficient distance, the features will disappear altogether. Are these features then abstractions, every one? Then what happens to the "thing" we call a lamp? If all of its features are dispositional features only, that is, the thing we call a lamp possesses the disposition to appear this way or that, given the changes in perspective, lighting, and general contextual conditions, how does the lamp remain a lamp at all?
I'm not saying the lamp does not exist. I am saying that our view of it changes with our position, and our description might use constant concepts but the view changes.
You seem to be confusing what we see, with the way we see it.

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Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow » September 12th, 2019, 8:19 pm

Well, the question is how do you separate the way you see it from the "what" we see?

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