Is Change Possible

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
elucid
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: September 9th, 2019, 1:14 am

Is Change Possible

Post by elucid »

Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
MAYA EL
Posts: 177
Joined: May 2nd, 2019, 11:17 pm

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by MAYA EL »

Due to the lack of information in your post in regards to the reason for said questions I will give you the same in return.


I would like your comments on the following statements.

>>>Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.
False.


>>>>Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent<<<
False.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7088
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 »

elucid wrote: September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Change is possible since stasis is never possible.
A thing that exists can transform into something else. All things transform.
The human potential to notice all change is faulty and identification is therefore false since it cannot keep up with constant change.
A flower today is not the same flower that was yesterday, since it grows. But humans "identify" it as the "same" flower, it is changed.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7088
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 »

A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2837
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow »

Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Felix »

Is change possible? Depends on where you are panhandling....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s »

elucid wrote: September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Note sure what if anything your O/P (original post) has to do with "change."

I thought you were going to talk about the classic issue of constant change on Earth and in the Heavens. This is a major philosophical topic.

Instead you started talking about Geometry and circles.

Not a very good title for your O/P then.

You should have called it "Of And About Circles In Geometry" instead. FYI.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s »

MAYA EL wrote: September 9th, 2019, 5:32 pm Due to the lack of information in your post in regards to the reason for said questions I will give you the same in return.


I would like your comments on the following statements.

>>>Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.
False.


>>>>Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent<<<
False.
Circles in Geometry are a fascinating topic.

All of us who have taken Geometry in school and/or college know what a circle is.

It is simply the loci of all points in a plane which are equidistant from any other given point.

This concept and definition never changes. Therefore all circles are similar, congruent, and alike.

I am guessing that this O/P (original poster) did not do too good in Geometry in school or college or at least does not remember much.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s »

Hereandnow wrote: September 9th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.
Actually I agree with Sculptor1 on this.

Math and Geometry are nonexistent abstractions of the human mind.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by h_k_s »

Felix wrote: September 9th, 2019, 11:09 pm Is change possible? Depends on where you are panhandling....
With the rising popularity of debit and credit cards, change is almost nonexistent anymore.

But you are correct Felix it all depends on where.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7088
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 »

Hereandnow wrote: September 9th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Sculptor1
A circle is an abstraction of reality.
Circles do not exist. Things that appear to be circles can exist, but are not static.
Not if you consider that what is thought about a thing is an integral part of the thing itself. If I ask ask you what a lamp is, you likely will not say that it is a mere abstraction because the is the objective counterpart in the "physical" lamp. But note, the affirmation that you acknowledge is presented in language, i.e., ideas. How far would your account go if the "abstract" part of the lamp were not available, if language, the saying and defining medium, were suspended? Surely all things are like this, it's just that the object in question need note physical. An emotion, a thought, a visual presentation in a hallucination, a belief: all these certainly have objects lest they be about nothing; and the ideas of the language that are brought to bear are equally real, for how can the thing be what it is without the words that bring it forth from undifferentiated stuff of the world?

Indeed, one might conclude that the idea is the better part of the Real.
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.
User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2837
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow »

Sculptor1
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.
But if you look at the lamp from a sufficient distance, the features will disappear altogether. Are these features then abstractions, every one? Then what happens to the "thing" we call a lamp? If all of its features are dispositional features only, that is, the thing we call a lamp possesses the disposition to appear this way or that, given the changes in perspective, lighting, and general contextual conditions, how does the lamp remain a lamp at all?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7088
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 »

elucid wrote: September 9th, 2019, 1:18 am Hi everyone,

I would like your comments on the following statements.

Statement 1:
A circle is never the same as something that is not a circle. Therefore, a circle is something that is never anything that is not a circle.

Statement 2:

Something existent is never the same as something that is non-existent. Therefore, something existent is something that is never non-existent.
Circles do not exist except as concepts.
Change is constant. Circles are temporary
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7088
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Sculptor1 »

Hereandnow wrote: September 12th, 2019, 6:55 pm
Sculptor1
A lamp might have a circular base, but as reality is 3D, the circularity is no more than an abstraction - a 2D abstraction of one aspect of that lamp as viewed from a single direction.
When you look more closely the circularity is a massively distorted and bumpy collection of molecules of various metallic compounds and impurities. No "circle" exists.

Geometry is a way to describe aspects of reality through measurement, by using abstractions of the mind.
But if you look at the lamp from a sufficient distance, the features will disappear altogether. Are these features then abstractions, every one? Then what happens to the "thing" we call a lamp? If all of its features are dispositional features only, that is, the thing we call a lamp possesses the disposition to appear this way or that, given the changes in perspective, lighting, and general contextual conditions, how does the lamp remain a lamp at all?
I'm not saying the lamp does not exist. I am saying that our view of it changes with our position, and our description might use constant concepts but the view changes.
You seem to be confusing what we see, with the way we see it.
User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2837
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Is Change Possible

Post by Hereandnow »

Well, the question is how do you separate the way you see it from the "what" we see?
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021