Opinions
- chewybrian
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Opinions
Do we have control over the formation of our opinions? To what extent do we choose what to believe, or simply perceive or deduce something which our reason then requires us to accept?
When is it right, rational, or wise to hold an opinion, and when should we withhold judgment?
Does a philosopher form opinions more carefully than others? Do you hold to the scientific method, or have some other higher standards than most folks might apply?
Could we improve things for ourselves or others by being more careful about the way we form opinions, or how often we have an opinion instead of making no finding?
- Pantagruel
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Re: Opinions
2. Much of our cognitive experience is indeed pre-formatted by so-called "cognitive biases" which tend to skew our perceptions from veridicality. I'd suggest you google "cognitive biases" and acquaint yourself with them, they are many.
3. Descartes is the original champion of "systematic doubt". Definitely worth looking at his Discourse on Method as a jumping off point.
4. Ironically, technical specialists can become more fixed in their views rather than less, even going so far as to falsify research in some cases. Go figure. Difference between 'espoused' and 'enacted' values. Walk the walk.
5. Yes, I think we should all be much more attentive to everything we say and do. Excavate our true motivations for acting.
Great set of quetsions!
- LuckyR
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Re: Opinions
What distinguishes the difference does not stem from your intent, rather the subject matter being discussed.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 18th, 2019, 4:39 pm What exactly are opinions, as opposed to knowledge, facts, or something else?
Do we have control over the formation of our opinions? To what extent do we choose what to believe, or simply perceive or deduce something which our reason then requires us to accept?
When is it right, rational, or wise to hold an opinion, and when should we withhold judgment?
Does a philosopher form opinions more carefully than others? Do you hold to the scientific method, or have some other higher standards than most folks might apply?
Could we improve things for ourselves or others by being more careful about the way we form opinions, or how often we have an opinion instead of making no finding?
For example: If I am measuring the length of two lines with a ruler, it is a "fact" that one is longer than another. If I state that I "know" that one is longer than another by eyeballing them from across the room, I am subject to common optical illusions where the opposite of my optical evaluation may end up being the "fact". Lastly if I determine that chocolate ice cream tastes better than vanilla, while a "fact" for me personally at this moment in time, is overall merely my "opinion" as pertains to an audience hearing my declaration.
- chewybrian
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Re: Opinions
You are right, of course, but maybe I should have asked this question differently. Perhaps the real question is when and why do we decide to treat opinions as facts, instead of being aware that they are simply opinions. A lot of people certainly treat opinion as fact, and that starts all sorts of trouble. I'm not sure what it is that gets people to think they know what they can not know.Pantagruel wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:18 am 1. Knowledge is usually viewed as a special kind of belief/opinion - viz. Knowledge is a true belief supported by sufficient evidence.
These seem to come in large part through evolution. In the wild, it was a benefit to be able to form quick impressions and act on them. There was no time for contemplation in life or death circumstances. So, it makes sense that we are wired to be opinionated. The remainder perhaps comes from laziness, as it is easier to make snap judgments and free our mind to go back to whatever else we prefer to focus on. It is also tempting to lean toward judgments that fit our chosen view of the world, to avoid admitting we might be wrong, or to have to shake the foundations of our understanding of the world.Pantagruel wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:18 am 2. Much of our cognitive experience is indeed pre-formatted by so-called "cognitive biases" which tend to skew our perceptions from veridicality. I'd suggest you google "cognitive biases" and acquaint yourself with them, they are many.
If I can doubt whether I experience reality or imagine it as a head in a jar, then I can doubt anything. It is a good reminder, but I don't know that people need to take things that far. I think most of us hold opinions that have little backing, that don't need a system to create doubt. We could learn more and have better interactions with others if we held off making such judgments.Pantagruel wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:18 am 3. Descartes is the original champion of "systematic doubt". Definitely worth looking at his Discourse on Method as a jumping off point.
So, asking the expert can backfire; this is not comforting.Pantagruel wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:18 am
4. Ironically, technical specialists can become more fixed in their views rather than less, even going so far as to falsify research in some cases. Go figure. Difference between 'espoused' and 'enacted' values. Walk the walk.
Agreed. This is my real reason for asking these questions. In particular, I think we make trouble for ourselves by forming opinions about people. Most of us are closer to the mark in our assessments of the physical world. Sartre said "hell is other people", and opinions are at the root of the problem. We look at people as objects in a sense. We try to define and categorize them in the same way, when they are something very different. They never fully reveal themselves, and they are always subject to change. Instead of thinking "Jamie is a jerk", we should limit our thoughts to "Jamie did something I did not like today". Instead, we categorize people in all sorts of ways, good or bad, that never really fit, and don't allow that person to grow and change.Pantagruel wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:18 am 5. Yes, I think we should all be much more attentive to everything we say and do. Excavate our true motivations for acting.
Stoic philosophy has taught me that, in large measure, your opinion becomes your reality. Note how two people can have a very different experience through identical circumstances and events. This is due to the baggage they brought with them. Keeping this in mind, it makes sense to work at forming your opinions into the ones that benefit you best. Form a grateful disposition, and you can see the good in most situations, and begin to have more positive experiences, even if the world around you stays pretty much the same.
The quickest shortcut on the path to trying to become a stoic is to withhold judgment as often as possible. In particular, this applies to other people. If you don't judge them to be good or bad people, then you won't try to categorize their actions to fit your judgments of them. Once you've judged them badly, then you will tend to attach bad motives to their actions, and then you will see injustice at every turn, and often be angry or resentful. Instead, if you make no finding, you can take new actions at face value, or even give them the benefit of the doubt. You will be happier without the burden of feeling injustice, and in time you may find out this person, whom you might have initially decided was evil, is OK after all. You will both experience and cause less hell if you make fewer judgments about others.
- chewybrian
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Re: Opinions
Strangely, you might say my choice of ice cream is one of the things I can declare with greatest certainty. It depends on nothing beyond my own personal experience, to which I have total access. You can almost say I can't be wrong. My opinion of which football team is better is grounded on my imperfect and woefully incomplete information about their true abilities, and I'm bound to be wrong sometimes.LuckyR wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:51 pm What distinguishes the difference does not stem from your intent, rather the subject matter being discussed.
For example: If I am measuring the length of two lines with a ruler, it is a "fact" that one is longer than another. If I state that I "know" that one is longer than another by eyeballing them from across the room, I am subject to common optical illusions where the opposite of my optical evaluation may end up being the "fact". Lastly if I determine that chocolate ice cream tastes better than vanilla, while a "fact" for me personally at this moment in time, is overall merely my "opinion" as pertains to an audience hearing my declaration.
In the case of the optical illusion, even though I was fooled, the appearance was effectively a fact to me. I would not judge primitive man harshly for believing the sun revolved around the earth. In fact, it would have seemed foolish to think otherwise at the time. I suppose I would separate judgments about the physical world from other opinions, and say that I am not much interested in the former in this case. We tend to mostly get it right when judging the physical world, and often get it wrong otherwise.
- LuckyR
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Re: Opinions
Basically opinions are the equivalent of asking: "what number am I thinking of?" I am always right and no one can dispute it. Sounds impressive but is almost worthless to anyone else.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 21st, 2019, 6:10 amStrangely, you might say my choice of ice cream is one of the things I can declare with greatest certainty. It depends on nothing beyond my own personal experience, to which I have total access. You can almost say I can't be wrong. My opinion of which football team is better is grounded on my imperfect and woefully incomplete information about their true abilities, and I'm bound to be wrong sometimes.LuckyR wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:51 pm What distinguishes the difference does not stem from your intent, rather the subject matter being discussed.
For example: If I am measuring the length of two lines with a ruler, it is a "fact" that one is longer than another. If I state that I "know" that one is longer than another by eyeballing them from across the room, I am subject to common optical illusions where the opposite of my optical evaluation may end up being the "fact". Lastly if I determine that chocolate ice cream tastes better than vanilla, while a "fact" for me personally at this moment in time, is overall merely my "opinion" as pertains to an audience hearing my declaration.
In the case of the optical illusion, even though I was fooled, the appearance was effectively a fact to me. I would not judge primitive man harshly for believing the sun revolved around the earth. In fact, it would have seemed foolish to think otherwise at the time. I suppose I would separate judgments about the physical world from other opinions, and say that I am not much interested in the former in this case. We tend to mostly get it right when judging the physical world, and often get it wrong otherwise.
- h_k_s
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Re: Opinions
In military law, an opinion is simply a personal conclusion based on a body of discovered and reported facts.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 18th, 2019, 4:39 pm What exactly are opinions, as opposed to knowledge, facts, or something else?
Do we have control over the formation of our opinions? To what extent do we choose what to believe, or simply perceive or deduce something which our reason then requires us to accept?
When is it right, rational, or wise to hold an opinion, and when should we withhold judgment?
Does a philosopher form opinions more carefully than others? Do you hold to the scientific method, or have some other higher standards than most folks might apply?
Could we improve things for ourselves or others by being more careful about the way we form opinions, or how often we have an opinion instead of making no finding?
Example:
Fact 1 - the ground, roads, grass, and trees and everything else outside are wet.
Fact 2 - there are drops of water everywhere.
Fact 3 - it is cloudy overhead.
Opinion - it rained.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Opinions
Fine except for the grammar failure: "...everything else outside are wet." Should be IS wet.h_k_s wrote: ↑September 22nd, 2019, 3:37 pm
In military law, an opinion is simply a personal conclusion based on a body of discovered and reported facts.
Example:
Fact 1 - the ground, roads, grass, and trees and everything else outside are wet.
Fact 2 - there are drops of water everywhere.
Fact 3 - it is cloudy overhead.
Opinion - it rained.
- chewybrian
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Re: Opinions
This may be considered an opinion in the specialized use of the word in a courtroom setting, perhaps. But, it seems to be the opposite of opinion, in the sense I am getting at. It is my opinion that dogs are better than cats, that motorcycles are better than cars, or that Jenny is nice and Al is a jerk. I can provide supporting evidence, but people are likely to come to different conclusions with different priorities, and it is difficult to say which priorities rule. In a specific case, maybe a dog is a better choice for sniffing out drugs or explosives. But, in more general circumstances, like which pet is better for a family, there is not one right answer.h_k_s wrote: ↑September 22nd, 2019, 3:37 pm In military law, an opinion is simply a personal conclusion based on a body of discovered and reported facts.
Example:
Fact 1 - the ground, roads, grass, and trees and everything else outside are wet.
Fact 2 - there are drops of water everywhere.
Fact 3 - it is cloudy overhead.
Opinion - it rained.
In the case of deciding it rained, most people would come to the same conclusion when presented with the same evidence. This is more of an assessment or best guess. It is a conclusion that might hold up in court, where the judge is unlikely to make a finding that dogs are better than cats or that Al is a jerk.
This is what I was getting at when I said we are much better at judging the physical world than people. We could mostly agree that it rained based on the evidence, but disagree over the other issues. Yet, some people feel just as strongly, perhaps more strongly, about their judgments in the other cases than about the rain. My point is that they should have different standards for these cases, and generally should come to fewer conclusions about the issues beyond physical evidence. When we draw conclusions about the motives of others, for example, everyone suffers.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Opinions
Ah, right. I think the only problem with opinions is when they're misrepresented as facts, as you describe. I find that almost anything people think can have value, when honestly declared. So faith, for example, can be of value, but asserting articles of faith as facts can only lead to confusion and misunderstanding.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 21st, 2019, 5:56 amPerhaps the real question is when and why do we decide to treat opinions as facts, instead of being aware that they are simply opinions. A lot of people certainly treat opinion as fact, and that starts all sorts of trouble.
Why do we misrepresent our opinions as facts? On the face of it, it's ridiculous, and yet so many of us do it. I can only think it's an attempt to give our opinions greater weight, by attaching the authority of 'facts' to them?
- LuckyR
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Re: Opinions
But is the fault of the sender of opinions or the receiver for not knowing the difference?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 24th, 2019, 7:03 amAh, right. I think the only problem with opinions is when they're misrepresented as facts, as you describe. I find that almost anything people think can have value, when honestly declared. So faith, for example, can be of value, but asserting articles of faith as facts can only lead to confusion and misunderstanding.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 21st, 2019, 5:56 amPerhaps the real question is when and why do we decide to treat opinions as facts, instead of being aware that they are simply opinions. A lot of people certainly treat opinion as fact, and that starts all sorts of trouble.
Why do we misrepresent our opinions as facts? On the face of it, it's ridiculous, and yet so many of us do it. I can only think it's an attempt to give our opinions greater weight, by attaching the authority of 'facts' to them?
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Opinions
Only the sender can (falsely) claim their opinions to be facts. The receiver might misunderstand, I suppose, although it seems unlikely.
Don't you find "fault" to be a fairly useless concept?
- h_k_s
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Re: Opinions
Great summary of the issue, chewybrian . I agree with you on all 4's (legal jargon, means completely agree).chewybrian wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2019, 8:39 amThis may be considered an opinion in the specialized use of the word in a courtroom setting, perhaps. But, it seems to be the opposite of opinion, in the sense I am getting at. It is my opinion that dogs are better than cats, that motorcycles are better than cars, or that Jenny is nice and Al is a jerk. I can provide supporting evidence, but people are likely to come to different conclusions with different priorities, and it is difficult to say which priorities rule. In a specific case, maybe a dog is a better choice for sniffing out drugs or explosives. But, in more general circumstances, like which pet is better for a family, there is not one right answer.h_k_s wrote: ↑September 22nd, 2019, 3:37 pm In military law, an opinion is simply a personal conclusion based on a body of discovered and reported facts.
Example:
Fact 1 - the ground, roads, grass, and trees and everything else outside are wet.
Fact 2 - there are drops of water everywhere.
Fact 3 - it is cloudy overhead.
Opinion - it rained.
In the case of deciding it rained, most people would come to the same conclusion when presented with the same evidence. This is more of an assessment or best guess. It is a conclusion that might hold up in court, where the judge is unlikely to make a finding that dogs are better than cats or that Al is a jerk.
This is what I was getting at when I said we are much better at judging the physical world than people. We could mostly agree that it rained based on the evidence, but disagree over the other issues. Yet, some people feel just as strongly, perhaps more strongly, about their judgments in the other cases than about the rain. My point is that they should have different standards for these cases, and generally should come to fewer conclusions about the issues beyond physical evidence. When we draw conclusions about the motives of others, for example, everyone suffers.
I think people get sloppy in their word usage and confuse words like "tastes" and "conclusions" with "opinions."
Many of the opinions you have pointed out are simply tastes. And as Adam Smith pointed out in his book in 1775 "The Wealth Of Nations" everyone of us has different tastes.
So if I believe that a hamburger is better than a hotdog, that is a matter of taste, not opinion.
- LuckyR
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Re: Opinions
Yes, but how much of what is attempted to be passed (falsely) as fact, is explicitly labelled as such? In my experience not a majority. Spin doctors are very adept at using the implicit context of "fact" to misrepresent their claims without using an explicit label of "fact".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 25th, 2019, 7:29 amOnly the sender can (falsely) claim their opinions to be facts. The receiver might misunderstand, I suppose, although it seems unlikely.
Don't you find "fault" to be a fairly useless concept?
IMO the receiver needs to be a better and more discriminatng consumer of information. My guess is you agree with me, or do you believe everything you read?
As to "fault", you can use "responsibility" instead if it makes you feel better.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Opinions
Perhaps a category error? Judging whether it rained is akin to judging whether a person ate the last biscuit. There you check the evidence - an empty packet and perhaps signs of guilty. As you said, it's more an assessment than an opinion.chewybrian wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2019, 8:39 amIn the case of deciding it rained, most people would come to the same conclusion when presented with the same evidence. This is more of an assessment or best guess. It is a conclusion that might hold up in court, where the judge is unlikely to make a finding that dogs are better than cats or that Al is a jerk.
This is what I was getting at when I said we are much better at judging the physical world than people. We could mostly agree that it rained based on the evidence, but disagree over the other issues.
Whereas the equivalent to "Al is a jerk" would be claiming rain sucks (and gardeners will disagree). Here the opinion is qualitative rather than blandly declarative.
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