Infinite monkey theorem

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green1
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Infinite monkey theorem

Post by green1 » January 12th, 2020, 7:01 am

Hi all,

https://en.m.wikipedia. org/wiki/Infinite_Monkey_theorem

The infinite monkey theorem suggests that there is no need for God for an intelligent design. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?

Thanks,

green1

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h_k_s
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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:03 pm

green1 wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 7:01 am
Hi all,

https://en.m.wikipedia. org/wiki/Infinite_Monkey_theorem

The infinite monkey theorem suggests that there is no need for God for an intelligent design. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?

Thanks,

green1
Your link did not work.

Here is the true link:

https://theinfinitemonkeytheorem.com/

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:04 pm

And for those of you who are really wondering what this is all about in Philosophy, here is another true link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:06 pm

green1 wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 7:01 am
Hi all,

https://en.m.wikipedia. org/wiki/Infinite_Monkey_theorem

The infinite monkey theorem suggests that there is no need for God for an intelligent design. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?

Thanks,

green1
If this is the only thing that you are basing your atheist faith upon, then I would say, get ready to roast in Lucifer's BBQ Palace someday soon.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Terrapin Station » January 13th, 2020, 4:47 am

There would be a need for a sentient being for an _intelligent_ design to be produced. It doesn't make sense to call something not-sentient "intelligent."

You'd have to say instead, "Something that's interpreted as intelligent design."

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Steve3007 » January 13th, 2020, 8:36 am

h_k_s wrote:If this is the only thing that you are basing your atheist faith upon...
While you're at it, ask him (or her) when he's going to stop beating his wife.
green1 wrote:How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?
Hi green1. Is the implication of this question that there would need to be some form of intelligence deciding when the monkeys can stop? If so, then I guess the point would be that the infinite monkey thought experiment doesn't really work because there still needs to be an intelligence to, as it were, pluck order from the randomness?

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Terrapin Station » January 13th, 2020, 9:02 am

The monkey thing is just a colorful way to note the idea that if you have something continually generating sets of letters (and spaces, etc.) randomly, of random lengths, then over a arbitrarily long period of time, where there's no time limit to it, that process will (re)produce every bit of writing that has ever been produced by humans.

Suggesting that the universe works at all like a random selection process operating for an arbitrarily long period of time would need to be justified, though.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by h_k_s » January 13th, 2020, 9:57 am

Steve3007 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 8:36 am
h_k_s wrote:If this is the only thing that you are basing your atheist faith upon...
While you're at it, ask him (or her) when he's going to stop beating his wife.
green1 wrote:How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?
Hi green1. Is the implication of this question that there would need to be some form of intelligence deciding when the monkeys can stop? If so, then I guess the point would be that the infinite monkey thought experiment doesn't really work because there still needs to be an intelligence to, as it were, pluck order from the randomness?
@Steve3007 there is plenty of room for more permanent residents in Lucifer's Hot BBQ Palace.

Hell ain't half-full yet.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by chewybrian » January 13th, 2020, 10:00 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 9:02 am
The monkey thing is just a colorful way to note the idea that if you have something continually generating sets of letters (and spaces, etc.) randomly, of random lengths, then over a arbitrarily long period of time, where there's no time limit to it, that process will (re)produce every bit of writing that has ever been produced by humans.

Suggesting that the universe works at all like a random selection process operating for an arbitrarily long period of time would need to be justified, though.
Isn't that the theory of natural selection in a nutshell?

You can extend it to behavioral therapy if you wish and use it to define learning and behavior in all animals and people. In theory, say from Thorndike or Skinner, we simply try random or previously learned behaviors against new problems until something generates a result we like (See also: Pavlov, Wolpe, Watson, Cover Jones). We, arguably, simply chain these learned behaviors together into complex behaviors to complete complex tasks. A case can be made that it all works back to positive and negative reinforcement of random attempts at some point, before we learned that something could get us what we wanted.

We also make some wild mistakes along the way through confusing correlation with cause and effect. When delivered food at random intervals, Skinner's pigeons would often assume, incorrectly, that their behavior had resulted in a food delivery, and repeat the behavior around in hopes of getting more food.

So, long story short, the suggestion you described is not the most absurd way of understanding the universe by any means. You can apply it to living things and find a decent match, though I don't think it tells the whole story. If you only mean to look at inert stuff, you can still find some apparent randomness if the system in view is complex enough, like weather, or at the subatomic level, perhaps.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Steve3007 » January 13th, 2020, 10:10 am

h_k_s wrote:@Steve3007 there is plenty of room for more permanent residents in Lucifer's Hot BBQ Palace.
:D . I'll mind my language then.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by green1 » January 13th, 2020, 10:11 am

Steve3007 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 8:36 am
h_k_s wrote:If this is the only thing that you are basing your atheist faith upon...
While you're at it, ask him (or her) when he's going to stop beating his wife.
green1 wrote:How the monkey knows where to stop? How the monkey concludes that the design is coherent, meaningful and beautiful enough, and stops typing and preserves the final design?
Hi green1. Is the implication of this question that there would need to be some form of intelligence deciding when the monkeys can stop? If so, then I guess the point would be that the infinite monkey thought experiment doesn't really work because there still needs to be an intelligence to, as it were, pluck order from the randomness?
Yes. This is what I mean.

Thank you all for your comments.

green1

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Terrapin Station » January 13th, 2020, 10:27 am

chewybrian wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 10:00 am

Isn't that the theory of natural selection in a nutshell?
No. As folks will all too readily bring up in free will discussions, science doesn't routinely posit that any phenomena are random, and most free will denied insist that led science nothing whatsoever is really random.

Quantum phenomena are usually suggested as the exception, but even quantum phenomena don't tend to be equiprobably random.

The monkeys typing Shakespeare idea is about randomness. If we're not talking about random selection there's no reason to believe the monkeys will ever arrive at Shakespeare.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Terrapin Station » January 13th, 2020, 10:29 am

Man I need to proofread better here since we can't edit after posting.

"Most free will denied" above should read "most free will deniers."

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Terrapin Station » January 13th, 2020, 10:30 am

Oops and "led science" was supposed to be "in science."

Some of these are auto"correction" problems by my kindle.

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Re: Infinite monkey theorem

Post by Steve3007 » January 13th, 2020, 10:32 am

I suspect that green1's point is that it takes an intelligent being (in that case a human) to recognise when the monkeys have stumbled on the Shakespeare. But I could be wrong.

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