Karma

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baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:37 pmKarma and rebirth are made-up, and have nothing to do with 'enlightenment'. I find it puzzling that people are trying to liberate themselves from a made-up cycle of rebirth, why waste your life trying to escape a cosmic mechanism that never existed in the first place?
If enlightenment is something that one can work toward and it takes some time to attain it, and if one's life could be cut short anytime (such by a robber or a stroke of lightening), then the possibility of not becoming enlightened is real. How to cope with this possibility? Somehow try to be content with the fact that you might not become enlightened, and that's that?
Atla wrote: August 11th, 2020, 11:03 amSo why people try to escape the 'wheel' anyway, I don't understand.
Because they don't want to suffer.
Atla
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Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 14th, 2020, 11:02 am
Atla wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:37 pmKarma and rebirth are made-up, and have nothing to do with 'enlightenment'. I find it puzzling that people are trying to liberate themselves from a made-up cycle of rebirth, why waste your life trying to escape a cosmic mechanism that never existed in the first place?
If enlightenment is something that one can work toward and it takes some time to attain it, and if one's life could be cut short anytime (such by a robber or a stroke of lightening), then the possibility of not becoming enlightened is real. How to cope with this possibility? Somehow try to be content with the fact that you might not become enlightened, and that's that?
Atla wrote: August 11th, 2020, 11:03 amSo why people try to escape the 'wheel' anyway, I don't understand.
Because they don't want to suffer.
Yeah, besides some people get 'enlightenment'/awakening spontaneously, while some others can work toward it for decades and still not get that kind of realization. Anyway, people who don't get it aren't missing out on much, for example it's not the 'end of all suffering' as there is no such thing.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 14th, 2020, 3:35 pmYeah, besides some people get 'enlightenment'/awakening spontaneously, while some others can work toward it for decades and still not get that kind of realization. Anyway, people who don't get it aren't missing out on much, for example it's not the 'end of all suffering' as there is no such thing.
On what doctrine of enlightenment are you basing this?
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 10:09 am
Atla wrote: December 14th, 2020, 3:35 pmYeah, besides some people get 'enlightenment'/awakening spontaneously, while some others can work toward it for decades and still not get that kind of realization. Anyway, people who don't get it aren't missing out on much, for example it's not the 'end of all suffering' as there is no such thing.
On what doctrine of enlightenment are you basing this?
The one where you realize who or what you truly are, this usually (but not always) happens via deconstructing the 'I'.

This is the only genuine enlightenment/awakening as far as I know, other enlightenments/awakenings are more like just special psychological states, or delusional stuff.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
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Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 12:59 pm
baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 10:09 am
On what doctrine of enlightenment are you basing this?
The one where you realize who or what you truly are, this usually (but not always) happens via deconstructing the 'I'.
But did you develop that doctrine on your own, or do you have it from the teachings of others?
Atla
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Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm
Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 12:59 pm The one where you realize who or what you truly are, this usually (but not always) happens via deconstructing the 'I'.
But did you develop that doctrine on your own, or do you have it from the teachings of others?
I don't really know what one could develop about it, it's more like a decontruction. I happened to figure it out on my own first, later I realized that this is one of those central themes of Eastern philosophy (especially of Advaita), that we keep hearing about but can't make sense of / we dismiss it.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
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Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 1:26 pmI happened to figure it out on my own first, later I realized that this is one of those central themes of Eastern philosophy (especially of Advaita), that we keep hearing about but can't make sense of / we dismiss it.
But what makes you think that enlightenment as you understand it is the same as what the Easterners talk about?
Atla
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Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:25 pm
Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 1:26 pmI happened to figure it out on my own first, later I realized that this is one of those central themes of Eastern philosophy (especially of Advaita), that we keep hearing about but can't make sense of / we dismiss it.
But what makes you think that enlightenment as you understand it is the same as what the Easterners talk about?
They seem to be talking about the same central realization, about seeing through the illusory nature of the 'I'. What they say makes perfect sense to me. Now this realization may then be handled, dressed up in different ways, I disagree with some of them, for example this karma and 'end of all suffering' business seems to be just added wishful thinking.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
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Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:38 pmThey seem to be talking about the same central realization, about seeing through the illusory nature of the 'I'.
But they are precise and systematic in their descriptions and instructions for practice and of the result, so that other people can come to that realization as well.
Do you have something similar?
and 'end of all suffering' business seems to be just added wishful thinking.
In Early Buddhism, cessation of all suffering is the whole point.
Atla
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Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:43 pm
Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:38 pmThey seem to be talking about the same central realization, about seeing through the illusory nature of the 'I'.
But they are precise and systematic in their descriptions and instructions for practice and of the result, so that other people can come to that realization as well.
Do you have something similar?
and 'end of all suffering' business seems to be just added wishful thinking.
In Early Buddhism, cessation of all suffering is the whole point.
I don't think this kind of awakening is the focus of Buddhism, even though it may be implicit in it. Advaita seems to be very open and straightforward about it though.
I didn't look at all the systematic practices, didn't need that. Some people can just understand the issue cognitively, and then it really hits them and they wake up, but this direct route is rarer.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:02 pm
baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:43 pmIn Early Buddhism, cessation of all suffering is the whole point.
I don't think this kind of awakening is the focus of Buddhism, even though it may be implicit in it.
The Four Noble Truths are rather explicit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
I didn't look at all the systematic practices, didn't need that. Some people can just understand the issue cognitively, and then it really hits them and they wake up, but this direct route is rarer.
If one doesn't stop suffering, then what's the point of enlightenment?
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:15 pm
Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:02 pm I don't think this kind of awakening is the focus of Buddhism, even though it may be implicit in it.
The Four Noble Truths are rather explicit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
I didn't look at all the systematic practices, didn't need that. Some people can just understand the issue cognitively, and then it really hits them and they wake up, but this direct route is rarer.
If one doesn't stop suffering, then what's the point of enlightenment?
I meant that the kind of awakening I was talking about isn't the focus of Buddhism (also, it doesn't have a point).
Stopping all suffering is impossible, so if some Buddhists are after that, then they are merely wasting their time.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
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Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:21 pmStopping all suffering is impossible, so if some Buddhists are after that, then they are merely wasting their time.
And why should others believe you that?
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:40 pm
Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:21 pmStopping all suffering is impossible, so if some Buddhists are after that, then they are merely wasting their time.
And why should others believe you that?
Why should people believe that they can separate themselves from their bodies and also from the world?
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:21 pmI meant that the kind of awakening I was talking about isn't the focus of Buddhism (also, it doesn't have a point).
Stopping all suffering is impossible, so if some Buddhists are after that, then they are merely wasting their time.
Your statement is egregious, in so many ways.


Atla wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:54 pmWhy should people believe that they can separate themselves from their bodies and also from the world?
Do they blieve that? I'm under no such impression.
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