Karma

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Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 19th, 2020, 6:08 am
Atla wrote: December 18th, 2020, 7:05 pmYou narrowed things down to Buddhism.
You used specifically Buddhist terminology.
And to tell you the truth I've never met a Buddhist who could define "suffering".
Maybe they just didn't want to talk to you about it ... They actually have principles as to who to talk with about the Dharma, and with whom not.

I'm not a Buddhist, but here's a Buddhist definition of suffering with further links: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... ukkha.html
Besides, even apart from the rebirth/karma nonsense, to some people, Buddhism can be refuted in one sentence: "It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all."
Your bold wholesale refutation of Buddhism is rather amusing. :D
That thing Buddhists call compassion, is not love.
AFAIK, it was never meant to be.
You used specifically Buddhist terminology. Yeah maybe they should only talk to people about the Dharma, who are delusional enough to believe that all suffering can be stopped. That way they won't have to face the absurdity of their beliefs.
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress and suffering.
You can remove all 'ignorance' and you'll still go through many forms of suffering. How you think doesn't affect much of the workings of the world.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 19th, 2020, 6:43 am
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress and suffering.
You can remove all 'ignorance' and you'll still go through many forms of suffering. How you think doesn't affect much of the workings of the world.
"Ignorance" here refers to the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, not just any old ignorance.

Anyway, as you boldly and wholesale rejected Buddhism, I thought you might have a relevant insight. But seeing that you're not well-versed in Buddhist doctrine, I have nothing further.

:mrgreen:
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:43 am
Atla wrote: December 19th, 2020, 6:43 am You can remove all 'ignorance' and you'll still go through many forms of suffering. How you think doesn't affect much of the workings of the world.
"Ignorance" here refers to the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, not just any old ignorance.

Anyway, as you boldly and wholesale rejected Buddhism, I thought you might have a relevant insight. But seeing that you're not well-versed in Buddhist doctrine, I have nothing further.

:mrgreen:
I already had my debates with Buddhists, we both know you don't have anything. Btw I know what ignorance refers to here, and I agree with many things in Buddhism.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Atla »

baker wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:43 am
Atla wrote: December 19th, 2020, 6:43 am You can remove all 'ignorance' and you'll still go through many forms of suffering. How you think doesn't affect much of the workings of the world.
"Ignorance" here refers to the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, not just any old ignorance.

Anyway, as you boldly and wholesale rejected Buddhism, I thought you might have a relevant insight. But seeing that you're not well-versed in Buddhist doctrine, I have nothing further.

:mrgreen:
For example you can believe all you want in the second noble truth, but that's just a trick the Buddha played on people, in order to improve the world. I can empathize with his decision to play this trick, but on a philosophy forum we demolish everything, so yeah: desire would have nothing whatsoever to do with re-becoming, even if re-becoming existed, which it doesn't. Without this Buddhism tends to collapse.
True philosophy points to the Moon
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Karma

Post by baker »

Atla wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:52 amI already had my debates with Buddhists, we both know you don't have anything.
Your self-confidence is admirable.
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AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Karma

Post by AmericanKestrel »

thrasymachus wrote: August 9th, 2020, 1:13 pm Surprising really, that all of this very interesting discussion fails to get at the meaning of karma.

Karma is a yoga, that is, it "yokes" one to a beyond where things are resolved morally and epistimologically; you know, like realizing the atman is the Brahman. Not much to actually SAY about this metaphysical beyond, and this is not the point. But our purpose on earth is to work through matters that confront us, and these are, at a deeper level, about an evolving soul. All yogas, dhyana, jnana, bahkti, (hatha?)are simply utilities; our living and breathing in a world of problems requires us to think practically, morally, and thought here is a yoga, a utility that lets one solve problems the working through of which is our karma, and this is called karma yoga. Meditation, say, is not qualitatively different in its purpose. It is simply more direct and effective. Bhakti yoga is closer to karma yoga as the latter tends to encompass the former.

As to reincarnation and yoga, well, once the karmic end is achieved, the need for reincarnation falls away. Reincarnation is the working our of impediments to enlightenment, samsara: the cycle of rebirth.

Not that you should believe all of this, as I do. Your business, though convincing others does make for interesting philosophy. But this is essentially what the word is about.
My first post in this forum and I am glad it is to express my compliments. Great explanation of what karma is and how it relates to reincarnation or rebirth. This is the concept in Hinduism. The Buddhist concept is somewhat different and a bit hard to explain/understand.
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