On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Terrapin Station »

hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 5:54 am

That actually has no truth value. Propositions are what can be true or false. So in order for "This sentence" to be true or false as claimed, "This sentence" would have to be a proposition. But it's not. "This sentence is false" is akin to saying "Orange is false" --the word "orange" isn't the sort of thing that's true or false. Neither is the phrase "This sentence."
It has a truth value.
Are you disagreeing that "This sentence" is not a proposition? Or are you claiming that things other than propositions have truth values?
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Terrapin Station »

impermanence wrote: December 15th, 2020, 12:19 pm All things contain all things.
That's certainly not an example of something that's true, haha.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 4:20 pm
hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 2:05 pm

It has a truth value.
Are you disagreeing that "This sentence" is not a proposition? Or are you claiming that things other than propositions have truth values?
"This sentence," is not a sentence.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Terrapin Station »

hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 5:54 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 4:20 pm

Are you disagreeing that "This sentence" is not a proposition? Or are you claiming that things other than propositions have truth values?
"This sentence," is not a sentence.
Well, and not a proposition. So how would it be true or false?
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 6:09 pm
hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 5:54 pm

"This sentence," is not a sentence.
Well, and not a proposition. So how would it be true or false?
I don't think we are disagreeing.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Terrapin Station »

hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 6:20 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 6:09 pm

Well, and not a proposition. So how would it be true or false?
I don't think we are disagreeing.
Maybe not, but earlier you said it has a truth value.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 6:54 pm
hegel wrote: December 15th, 2020, 6:20 pm

I don't think we are disagreeing.
Maybe not, but earlier you said it has a truth value.

Yes. I think I did not see the original post properly.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

This is from Graham Priest's book, In Contradiction. This is more germane to the issue of dialetheism.

"“Hegel agreed with Kant that the antinomies, the arguments that end in contradiction proceed by a perfectly legitimate reasoning. However, he found no basis for ruling the applications of concepts within them to be legitimate. For Hegel, the distinction between objects that are experienced and mere “objects of thought” has no particular ontological significance.”
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by impermanence »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 4:28 pm
impermanence wrote: December 15th, 2020, 12:19 pm All things contain all things.
That's certainly not an example of something that's true, haha.
That's a side-splitter, no doubt, but consider the following...

One's position in the Universe determines [at any particular moment] their unique point of reference. IOW, only you can be were you are and this gives you a unique "Universal address." At any particular point in the Universe, all things exist in different times [dependent on their relative distance].

If you were able to freeze a model of the entire Universe showing each point, you would find that all time is going on at the same time and each point experiences a different reality [geometric position] based on the distances [time] between objects.

For example:
Let's say you were on planet Earth and your friend was on a planet 100 billion LYs away. You were both looking at a star that was 10x's closer to you than it was to your friend. The light you would be perceiving emanated 10x's sooner than what your friend is seeing. If this is indeed the case, then this must hold for all things at all distances. Therefore, the only important variable is the distance between yourself and other points of reference, that is, all things are taking place at the same time [it just depends on where YOU are].

So, all things contain all things. My friend, it's all going on at the same time although you are only capable of seeing things through your unique perspective [location]. What you are seeing "now" will [potentially] be able to be seen forever if you are able to change your location at the speed of light.

Of course, this is all total BS, but it sounds good and uses currently accepted ideas. Who knows, fifty years from now [or perhaps fifty seconds], a "new and improved" explanation will arise like the mythical Phoenix and on and on it goes...
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 9:36 am Yeah, equivocations are not contradictions. A contradiction can't equivocate. Terms have to be used in the same sense, the temporal context has to be the same, etc.
Yes. And it seems that this is all there is to the sentences that are given as examples of being both true and false.

The form of the apparent contradiction is meant to draw one's attention and to reflect on the distinction. It's not evidence of some glitch in the matrix.
hegel
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

baker wrote: December 16th, 2020, 3:51 am
Terrapin Station wrote: December 15th, 2020, 9:36 am Yeah, equivocations are not contradictions. A contradiction can't equivocate. Terms have to be used in the same sense, the temporal context has to be the same, etc.
Yes. And it seems that this is all there is to the sentences that are given as examples of being both true and false.

The form of the apparent contradiction is meant to draw one's attention and to reflect on the distinction. It's not evidence of some glitch in the matrix.
What matrix?
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Sculptor1 »

hegel wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:16 pm Graham Priest defines dialetheism as the logic where something can be both true and false.

"A dialetheia is a sentence, A , such that both it and its negation, ¬A, are true. If falsity is assumed to be the truth of negation, a dialetheia is a sentence which is both true and false." (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dialetheism/)

I think he is correct. Anyone have thoughts on this? Believe dialetheism must be wrong?
Example plz!
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by Steve3007 »

Even if they haven't seen the film I'd have thought most people would be aware that the expression "glitch in the matrix" is one of those standard pieces of modern shorthand, like "a Sliding Doors moment".
hegel
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by hegel »

Steve3007 wrote: December 16th, 2020, 1:12 pm Even if they haven't seen the film I'd have thought most people would be aware that the expression "glitch in the matrix" is one of those standard pieces of modern shorthand, like "a Sliding Doors moment".
Thanks, sliding doors. That clears everything up.
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Re: On dialetheism: Can a sentence be both true and not true?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 16th, 2020, 1:09 pm
hegel wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:16 pm Graham Priest defines dialetheism as the logic where something can be both true and false.

"A dialetheia is a sentence, A , such that both it and its negation, ¬A, are true. If falsity is assumed to be the truth of negation, a dialetheia is a sentence which is both true and false." (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dialetheism/)

I think he is correct. Anyone have thoughts on this? Believe dialetheism must be wrong?
Example plz!
So true. 30 posts in and no idea what the thread is about...
"As usual... it depends."
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