Hegel & Marxism

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hegel
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by hegel »

Neil Wallace wrote: December 18th, 2020, 8:58 pm Chewybrian is Correct. For me another issue is that of sources. All quote various sections of various encyclopaedias, and yet the only real way to establish this would be to start diving into what Hegel actually wrote eg.

Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal etc." And then start unpacking this to bring out a very nuanced analysis that really makes the Idealist/Materialist debate somewhat superficial.

In life we have to rely on general and received wisdom just to get by as it is impossible to learn everything to the nth degree, but when things become a war of the "expert sources", I guess one should always go to the original text.
Even physicists don't agree on the definition of "physical."
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Count Lucanor »

hegel wrote: December 18th, 2020, 9:49 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: December 18th, 2020, 5:31 pm
I have supported the claim that Hegel is classified among idealists, not among materialists. Do you have any arguments against the entries in Britannica Encyclopedia or Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that put Hegel among German Idealists?

Is there any literature, academic or of any kind, that would support your controversial, nonsensical claim that Hegel is to be classified among materialists?
Your claim is nonsensical.
You can have all the beliefs that you want, the point is whether you can prove them. So far, all scholars are on the side of Hegel being an idealist, not a materialist. Entries in two well known encyclopedias attest for that being the mainstream, commonsensical knowledge. The list can easily be made longer:
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Hegel
"In addition to epitomizing German idealist philosophy..."

Philosophy Basics - 19th Century Philosophy

The greatest and most influential of the German Idealists, though, was Georg Hegel. Although his works have a reputation for abstractness and difficulty, Hegel is often considered the summit of early 19th Century German thought, and his influence was profound.

Another German Idealist, G. W. F. Hegel, claimed that pure abstract thought (as in Kant's formulations) is limited and leads to unsolvable contradictions.

Here it is a simple diagram of the history of philosophy. Perhaps images will help you more in your learning process of the basics:


You have nothing, no exhibit of any compendium of scholarly sources or a singular expert work that will put Hegel in the materialist side, opposite to idealists. Yours is only an ill-informed, ridiculous, nonsensical belief.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Neil Wallace
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Neil Wallace »

Philosophers categorise Hegel as an Idealist, but Hegel can be seen to hold materialist views so you are both correct and as said talking past each other.
Neither is being ridiculous, save perhaps only in the sense that they call the other ridiculous, I suggest a synthesis be formed :)
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Count Lucanor »

Neil Wallace wrote: December 18th, 2020, 11:07 pm Philosophers categorise Hegel as an Idealist, but Hegel can be seen to hold materialist views so you are both correct and as said talking past each other.
Neither is being ridiculous, save perhaps only in the sense that they call the other ridiculous, I suggest a synthesis be formed :)
I disagree. It is in the field of philosophy that you will find the appropriate classification of philosophers, and calling Hegel a materialist is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Hegel's idealism is not a controversial issue in academic circles, where he is not just considered one idealist, but the one that "epitomizes German idealist philosophy". It has not been shown in this thread that such controversy exists in academy, which would be the minimum requirement for starting such discussion. Otherwise, why not start calling Plato and Kant materialists, Descartes a monist, Nietzsche a positivist, and so on. Why not put Derrida at the center of Scholasticism. Madness.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Neil Wallace
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Neil Wallace »

The reason you would not describe Derrida as a Scholastic is presumably lack of evidence. I know nothing of Derrida, or scholasticism so cannot say.

No one I think disputes Hegel is classified as an Idealist by philosophers . Classification is not the same as being. A Cookery book that contains a large element of Travel is placed in the Cookery section of the library. Is it though a purely cookery book? No. Can you say it is a travel book, well sort of -but it would be clearer to qualify it as a Travel Cookery book.

Here Hegel gives a definition of the material world Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal." Here is evidence that Hegel believes in a material world. He describes the material world as "being in the form of a universal".

Hence he can be described as an Idealist with materialist views.I dont have a problem with that definition.

In my view as said the Idealist/Materialst dichotomy is misleading and only functions as a summary when it comes to Hegel. The actual philosophy is far richer and interesting.
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by hegel »

Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am The reason you would not describe Derrida as a Scholastic is presumably lack of evidence. I know nothing of Derrida, or scholasticism so cannot say.

No one I think disputes Hegel is classified as an Idealist by philosophers . Classification is not the same as being. A Cookery book that contains a large element of Travel is placed in the Cookery section of the library. Is it though a purely cookery book? No. Can you say it is a travel book, well sort of -but it would be clearer to qualify it as a Travel Cookery book.

Here Hegel gives a definition of the material world Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal." Here is evidence that Hegel believes in a material world. He describes the material world as "being in the form of a universal".

Hence he can be described as an Idealist with materialist views.I dont have a problem with that definition.

In my view as said the Idealist/Materialst dichotomy is misleading and only functions as a summary when it comes to Hegel. The actual philosophy is far richer and interesting.

People who never read Hegel and think they are experts are pathetic. Lost respect for this forum.

Probably will be banned. Best for me. Too many neophytes pontificating about things they know nothing about.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Sy Borg »

hegel wrote: December 19th, 2020, 3:34 pm
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am The reason you would not describe Derrida as a Scholastic is presumably lack of evidence. I know nothing of Derrida, or scholasticism so cannot say.

No one I think disputes Hegel is classified as an Idealist by philosophers . Classification is not the same as being. A Cookery book that contains a large element of Travel is placed in the Cookery section of the library. Is it though a purely cookery book? No. Can you say it is a travel book, well sort of -but it would be clearer to qualify it as a Travel Cookery book.

Here Hegel gives a definition of the material world Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal." Here is evidence that Hegel believes in a material world. He describes the material world as "being in the form of a universal".

Hence he can be described as an Idealist with materialist views.I dont have a problem with that definition.

In my view as said the Idealist/Materialst dichotomy is misleading and only functions as a summary when it comes to Hegel. The actual philosophy is far richer and interesting.
People who never read Hegel and think they are experts are pathetic. Lost respect for this forum.

Probably will be banned. Best for me. Too many neophytes pontificating about things they know nothing about.
Yes. He has been banned - but not because of the arguments, as he mischievously implies. He knew he was gone because he had just sent me a PM that opened with, "Go **** yourself you stupid ****" ... and from there he started to really get stuck into me :lol:

Strange how some people commit forum hari kuri. A martyr complex?
Neil Wallace
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Neil Wallace »

Well the martyr's claim Hegel was a materialist is I hope one can see defensible without the need for pejorative language - at least from a certain perspective. Whether it is the perspective the martyr would have used is now purely speculative.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Sy Borg »

Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 4:03 pm Well the martyr's claim Hegel was a materialist is I hope one can see defensible without the need for pejorative language - at least from a certain perspective. Whether it is the perspective the martyr would have used is now purely speculative.
Hi Neil. I know nothing about Hegel. However, sometimes people come to the forum to pass on some interesting insight but they fail to express it well, get into arguments, unload on me by PM, and then they go.

Between all the bad faith put-downs, was a valid point hiding in hegel's objections to others' ideas about Hegel? Is there a possible broader ideological reason behind this (given how Marxism is a hot button issue in some circles) or just an argument over accuracy?
Neil Wallace
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Neil Wallace »

I'm not sure the discussion was about Marxism at all. The hot button was hegel's claim "Hegel was a materialist" for me it came down to an ambiguity over how you would interpret that statement. Is he classified as a Materialist, or did he believe in the material world. Unfortunately hegel declined to elaborate on his claim.

The "ideological" issue for me is not to do with Marxism but how Idealism is perceived. That is someone who denies the existence of the material world. For Berkeley that is true (as I recall), for Hegel the issue is more complex and richer. It is worth "fighting for" raising awareness of that distinction.

My Knowledge of Hegel amounts to 150 pages so I have to stop there until I gain more insight.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Count Lucanor »

Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am The reason you would not describe Derrida as a Scholastic is presumably lack of evidence. I know nothing of Derrida, or scholasticism so cannot say.
Just as with any other philosopher. There are, of course, disputable conceptions about where many philosophers stand, enough for generating discussion among experts themselves. Hegel's idealism is simply not one of them.
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am No one I think disputes Hegel is classified as an Idealist by philosophers .
Well, it seems there is at least one person who does dispute Hegel's idealism, although he failed to even start making a case for it.
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am Classification is not the same as being. A Cookery book that contains a large element of Travel is placed in the Cookery section of the library. Is it though a purely cookery book? No. Can you say it is a travel book, well sort of -but it would be clearer to qualify it as a Travel Cookery book.
I agree classifications are just that, mere conventions. That doesn't mean conventions are not well grounded in what really is. There are things that are subject to discussion and potentially changed in their classification, but some others are not ambiguous. Hegel being an idealist, instead of a materialist, is not controversial. I guess one can always make a claim of the type: "I acknowledge X is always put in class Y, but I would want to make the case that X belongs to class Z", and then an interesting conversation might ensue, however it starts by stating the current convention or state of knowledge. Not the case here, where the person making the claim completely ignored the conventional philosophical canon and went directly to say "X belongs to class Z". You don't enter a culinary forum and exclaim: "Mastering the Art of French Cooking is a travel book" or "Julia Child was a famous chemist". That's being unreasonable.
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am Here Hegel gives a definition of the material world Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal." Here is evidence that Hegel believes in a material world. He describes the material world as "being in the form of a universal".

Hence he can be described as an Idealist with materialist views.I dont have a problem with that definition.
One can look at all the nuances of Hegel's idealism, even at how it sort of inspired some forms of materialism, but that doesn't change Hegel being an epitomizing figure of Idealism.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Sy Borg
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Sy Borg »

Thanks Neil. So the debate is over Hegel's view as to how closely our perceptions match reality?
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 4:38 pmIs he classified as a Materialist, or did he believe in the material world. Unfortunately hegel declined to elaborate on his claim.
His username suggests that he would have read a fair hit of Hegel. If he hadn't blown up at me I would have left him to it as I hate banning people with knowledge.

Of course, this is just the froth and bubble of life, the churning shallows above the quieter deeps. As far as I can tell, all of what we refer to as reality is thoroughly real - the shallow, the deep, the visceral and illusions - the lot.
Neil Wallace
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Neil Wallace »

hegel's knowledge of Hegel will always remain an abiding mystery to me. I suspect it was not that deep for the reason the Hegel's philosophy is social and requires the "other's " thoughts and opposition etc. to make progress. He did not see to demonstrate much of the Hegelian spirit. Who knows?
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Sy Borg »

Thanks for making the situation more clear.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Hegel & Marxism

Post by Count Lucanor »

Regarding this:
Neil Wallace wrote: December 19th, 2020, 10:54 am Here Hegel gives a definition of the material world Phenomenology of Mind Miller p154 "Matter, on the contrary is not an existent thing, but is being in the form of a universal." Here is evidence that Hegel believes in a material world. He describes the material world as "being in the form of a universal".
Hegel was an absolute or objective idealist, therefore he was, along with Plato, also a realist. You should not confuse his realism about the Absolute Idea with materialism. Just as it is stated in your quote above, for him matter does not exist as an independent object, just a manifestation of the Absolute Idea. A few quotes from Hegel's work might help to clear it out:

The word ‘reality’ is used to mean that something behaves conformably to its essential characteristic or notion. For example, we use the expression: ‘This is a real man’. Here the term does not merely mean outward and immediate existence: but rather that some existence agrees with its notion. In this sense, reality is not distinct from ideality .
Shorter Logic (1830)

Actuality and thought (or Idea) are often absurdly opposed. It is necessary energetically to protest against these doctrines, for on the one hand Ideas are not confined to our heads merely, nor is the Idea, on the whole, so feeble as to leave the question of its actualisation or non-actualisation dependent on our will. The Idea is rather the absolutely active as well as actual
Shorter Logic (1830)

Every individual being is some one aspect of the Idea.

Shorter Logic (1830)

The Idea, as unity of the Subjective and Objective Idea, is the absolute and all truth, the Idea which thinks itself.

Shorter Logic (1830)
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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