Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

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Papus79
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Papus79 »

Not sure if I should say 'Thanks for sharing - I didn't need to know' or 'Thanks for sharing - I'll keep that in mind to ignore / not reply to similar instances in the future'. When other people play these sorts of games it's actually liberating - ie. I don't really have to care about much of what they have to say from that point forward because they're demonstrating their lack of interest in actually engaging the topics of discussion. It's the same thing for people who don't participate but show up to correct everyone's grammar and spelling slips.
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NukeBan
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by NukeBan »

Papus79 wrote: January 1st, 2021, 9:17 pmWhat he said about the future is that he was hoping that we wouldn't eradicate drugs but rather the hope was that the drugs would just get better all-around.
Yes, better drugs seem inevitable. I don't know how far that can be taken, but you've opened my mind to a technical solution. Given the existential threat presented by primarily male violence it seems logical that we would be exploring possible drug solutions in earnest.
It seems like then, if there has to be some public shot for at least establishing some sort of public and civil meaning or purpose, even without attempting claims at cosmic meaning and purpose, it has to be something that can breathe and change with incoming facts. Being able to breath and change with incoming facts is something that science has been able to do for the most part,
To quibble briefly, it seems reasonable to contest a notion that science culture is open to any level of fundamental change. The "more is better" relationship with knowledge seems every bit as much a blind dogma as the Virgin Mary etc. It's the marriage of this "more is better" relationship with knowledge and violent men that poses the existential threat.
Atla
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Atla »

NukeBan wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 4:50 am Given the existential threat presented by primarily male violence it seems logical that we would be exploring possible drug solutions in earnest.
What about most women, who are programmed to be attracted to strong/aggressive/dominant/violent men (good genes), and reward that behaviour? Besides people wouldn't accept to be drugged.

The best bet to 'save humanity' might be through genetic engineering, gradually creating a superior human species (improving both genders). This could even be sold to people, because everyone want superior offspring. Unfortunately this level of technology may be at least decades away or more.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Papus79 wrote: January 1st, 2021, 6:42 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 31st, 2020, 8:07 pm No, I don't think its like saying that at all.
"Pissing contests" are empty rituals usually performed when drunk.
I've studied enough anthropology to now it not the norm or universal. Masculine activities are more closely related to real life activities, where co-operation and competition do handin in hand.
Aggression varies encourmously. Ritual and violent perpetual warfare with the Yanomani to the gentle self-lessness of the San people.
You might like to see co-operation as a feminine trait, but in most societies through history a lack of male co-operation simply means coming home WITHOUT any meat.
I guess part of what I'm trying to figure out - why so many workplaces I've been at the credo seems to be this - you're to worship Satan with every in-breath, every out-breath, and every heartbeat, Violence is God, any other governing principle is too weak to exist and has only the right to be dominated out of existence.
"credo"?
I do not recognise your work experience as any thing like my own.
Do you think you are using hyperbole?

When I see that I see Darwinian game theory twisting the dials. It's a place where if you show any public sign of good equilibrium or peace of mind it means you're a lazy slob who needs to be kicked until you're as miserable and high-strung as everyone else around you.
In my experience the only negatives are when you are in fact a lazy slob. In all cases co-operation has been appreciated even when not directly rewarded.

It seems like to let one bully have their way sets the tone where nearly everyone is forced into that mode.
What sort of work context are you talking about?
The only bullies I have witnessed have been bosses. But they tended to be the least effective ones.

This is what I mean though - to not have things get like that, ie. not have professional 'adult' life be defined by blood-drinking contests and deciding whose the libations, there'd have to be not just a cool-down but a dismantling of the sorts of behavioral incentive structures that lead to said environment. When I talk about 'pissing contests' that might have been too literally taken as two men outside a dive bar by their trucks pissing in the grass. I mean all of these social positioning and social climbing, or really dominating anyone whose inferior to you by either them being of inferior aggression or violence or simply just not being of the same genetic tree and deserving no quarter because human is just another meat to be chopped up and thrown in a bucket.
Where are you from?
Sounds like you live amongst total wankers.
NukeBan
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by NukeBan »

Atla wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:55 amBesides people wouldn't accept to be drugged.
Apologies, but, um, there's a penalty to be paid for slamming down on the reply button to grab the gotcha experience as fast as we possibly can.

Huge numbers of people are already on some drug or another. Huge numbers of people will take drugs that they enjoy, find effective, reasonably safe etc.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/194 ... -on-sales/
Advil was the leading name-brand internal analgesic tablet in the United States in 2019, not including private label. In that year, Advil generated 449.5 million U.S. dollars in sales, while private label internal analgesic tablet sales amounted to nearly 1.18 billion U.S. dollars.
And this type of drug is only the tip of the iceberg, right?

I've already agreed that a male violence vaccine would have to be enjoyable in some manner in order to reach wide acceptance. You would know this, if you were actually reading the posts which you want to reject.
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Terrapin Station »

NukeBan wrote: January 1st, 2021, 8:38 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 1st, 2021, 11:20 amI asked you earlier if you weren't aware that women can be just as violent as men. You just blew off addressing this.
Most of the posts in this thread don't merit much engagement, imho. This is a philosophy forum. If you should for some reason want my attention, please raise your game.
We need to focus on simplifying our game and being able to get somewhere with that first. We need to learn to crawl before we try running a marathon.
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by NukeBan »

Papus79 wrote: January 1st, 2021, 9:44 pmWhen other people play these sorts of games it's actually liberating - ie. I don't really have to care about much of what they have to say from that point forward because they're demonstrating their lack of interest in actually engaging the topics of discussion.
Here's an experiment that would reveal how little interest philosophy forum users typically have in the topics being discussed. Remove the screen names so that nobody could tell who said what. Without some mechanism by which we could attach our egos to some identity and then promote that identity as being superior to somebody else, all philosophy forums would collapse in about 2 weeks.

I know this for a fact, because user Nukeban is the greatest philosophy poster of all time by far, way, way, way superior in logic dancing to everyone else ever born. :D
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Terrapin Station »

NukeBan wrote: January 1st, 2021, 8:54 pm Papus79 raised the subject of DNA editing. Point being to remove the violence instead of the men. I agree violence is the target here, not men.
If the goal is to get rid of violence this would be far more effective, but it would probably be a good idea to also get rid of oppression, mob control/control via conformity to norms, etc., too, because those things can happen without violence, violence is sometimes a necessary tool to fix them (revolutions, coups, etc.), and thus without a capacity for violence, oppression could run rampant. There would also need to be safeguards against people being immune to or overriding the violence suppression techniques, because otherwise those folks can violently overthrow whatever they want and no one else can do anything about it, because the other folks aren't capable of retaliating against violence.

It would be interesting to try to explore scenarios here in the manner of the film The Invention of Lying.
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Papus79
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Papus79 »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 6:06 am
Papus79 wrote: January 1st, 2021, 6:42 pm
I guess part of what I'm trying to figure out - why so many workplaces I've been at the credo seems to be this - you're to worship Satan with every in-breath, every out-breath, and every heartbeat, Violence is God, any other governing principle is too weak to exist and has only the right to be dominated out of existence.
"credo"?
I do not recognise your work experience as any thing like my own.
Do you think you are using hyperbole?
It's tricky.

I try to 'map' the states of other people through their behavior and sometimes analogies that go so far as avoiding 'like' or 'as' disclaimers and even using what would seem to be hyperbolic language seems to be what's needed to draw the picture correctly.
Sometimes I've genuinely wished I were a slob - there'd be something I could fix.

From what I've noticed I live in an are where if you don't socially conform in every way, I don't mean missing basic social skills but fitting everyone's expectations on interests and reactions to everything to the nth degree, that you're displaying an unforgivable flaw. Even worse if you're actually intelligent and that your differences are what these people feared them most - ie. that you are your own person or march to the beat of your own drum is a sign of competence, they have to do their level best to get you out of the organization early.

The part that's so bizarre about this - I'm not in organized crime. I'm not in a gang. I'm not dealing with so many other horribly traumatic things people could be dealing with such as having abusive parents and family. What seems to be rather happening is a sort of functional insanity were few if any people around me have their integrity fully intact, rather they hold on to various pieces and over time getting to know them it seems like power has always chipped or damaged their capacity to line-up with truth. For example my dad's always put himself out there as an honorable guy who does the right thing and his answer to some of the above is 'Oh yeah - it's competitive' or 'Oh yeah, business can be close to all-out war'. It seems like the ability to be financially stable enough to have a family either requires breaking yourself into the mold other people expect (even in places too deep or personal for them to have any right) or just getting lucky enough to find an organization where people aren't functionally insane - which seems like it's few if any.
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Papus79
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Papus79 »

* quote snag fixed:
Sculptor1 wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 6:06 am
Papus79 wrote: January 1st, 2021, 6:42 pm
I guess part of what I'm trying to figure out - why so many workplaces I've been at the credo seems to be this - you're to worship Satan with every in-breath, every out-breath, and every heartbeat, Violence is God, any other governing principle is too weak to exist and has only the right to be dominated out of existence.
"credo"?
I do not recognise your work experience as any thing like my own.
Do you think you are using hyperbole?
It's tricky.

I try to 'map' the states of other people through their behavior and sometimes analogies that go so far as avoiding 'like' or 'as' disclaimers and even using what would seem to be hyperbolic language seems to be what's needed to draw the picture correctly.
Sculptor1 wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 6:06 am In my experience the only negatives are when you are in fact a lazy slob. In all cases co-operation has been appreciated even when not directly rewarded.
Sometimes I've genuinely wished I were a slob - there'd be something I could fix.

From what I've noticed I live in an are where if you don't socially conform in every way, I don't mean missing basic social skills but fitting everyone's expectations on interests and reactions to everything to the nth degree, that you're displaying an unforgivable flaw. Even worse if you're actually intelligent and that your differences are what these people feared them most - ie. that you are your own person or march to the beat of your own drum is a sign of competence, they have to do their level best to get you out of the organization early.

The part that's so bizarre about this - I'm not in organized crime. I'm not in a gang. I'm not dealing with so many other horribly traumatic things people could be dealing with such as having abusive parents and family. What seems to be rather happening is a sort of functional insanity were few if any people around me have their integrity fully intact, rather they hold on to various pieces and over time getting to know them it seems like power has always chipped or damaged their capacity to line-up with truth. For example my dad's always put himself out there as an honorable guy who does the right thing and his answer to some of the above is 'Oh yeah - it's competitive' or 'Oh yeah, business can be close to all-out war'. It seems like the ability to be financially stable enough to have a family either requires breaking yourself into the mold other people expect (even in places too deep or personal for them to have any right) or just getting lucky enough to find an organization where people aren't functionally insane - which seems like it's few if any.
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Papus79
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Papus79 »

NukeBan wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 8:12 am Here's an experiment that would reveal how little interest philosophy forum users typically have in the topics being discussed. Remove the screen names so that nobody could tell who said what. Without some mechanism by which we could attach our egos to some identity and then promote that identity as being superior to somebody else, all philosophy forums would collapse in about 2 weeks.

I know this for a fact, because user Nukeban is the greatest philosophy poster of all time by far, way, way, way superior in logic dancing to everyone else ever born. :D
A good article that Dave from Rebel Wisdom put me onto called the Internet of Beefs:

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/t ... -of-beefs/

I think of Fishbone's album title 'Give a Monkey a Brain and He'll Swear He's the Center of the Universe'. Sounds about right.
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NukeBan
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by NukeBan »

Terrapin Station, ok, those are interesting points. I agree it's a complex equation however we were to go about it. Imho, most of what you're discussing above would largely go away if we just got rid of men, so maybe we're back to that? :-)

One point....

I agree that the IDEA of a single gender society is a huge pill for people to swallow. But my guess is that once a world without men was the status quo, the normality, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. That is, my guess is that generally speaking people want what they already know, and are afraid of anything too far outside of what's considered normal.

When I was young the whole idea of gay marriage would have totally freaked most people out. But now that we have it everyone is getting used to it and it's increasingly seen to not be a big deal at all. In the 1950's my hippy hair would have branded me as a dangerous communist revolutionary wacko crackpot pervert person. Now nobody notices, a complete non-issue.

Another point...

Any solution which dramatically reduced violence is going to be revolutionary, and thus controversial. So if we rule out everything which is risky or complicated, if we just rationalize the status quo and then walk away, what we're really doing (imho) is signing the death warrant for modern civilization, you know, all the miracles which have arisen over the last 500 since the Enlightenment. It's not really that rational to assume that we can harvest the benefits of an ever accelerating knowledge explosion while at the same time keeping things more or less the same.

Another point...

It's not at all a given that we have enough time available to fully analyze all the complexities of a change as fundamental as either getting rid of men, or radically changing them. You know, if your house is on fire you don't really have time for getting out the floor plans and contemplating new building codes etc. You may instead have to do the best you can with what you've got on the spot and hope it works out.
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Terrapin Station »

NukeBan wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 10:39 am Terrapin Station, ok, those are interesting points. I agree it's a complex equation however we were to go about it. Imho, most of what you're discussing above would largely go away if we just got rid of men, so maybe we're back to that? :-)

One point....

I agree that the IDEA of a single gender society is a huge pill for people to swallow. But my guess is that once a world without men was the status quo, the normality, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. That is, my guess is that generally speaking people want what they already know, and are afraid of anything too far outside of what's considered normal.

When I was young the whole idea of gay marriage would have totally freaked most people out. But now that we have it everyone is getting used to it and it's increasingly seen to not be a big deal at all. In the 1950's my hippy hair would have branded me as a dangerous communist revolutionary wacko crackpot pervert person. Now nobody notices, a complete non-issue.

Another point...

Any solution which dramatically reduced violence is going to be revolutionary, and thus controversial. So if we rule out everything which is risky or complicated, if we just rationalize the status quo and then walk away, what we're really doing (imho) is signing the death warrant for modern civilization, you know, all the miracles which have arisen over the last 500 since the Enlightenment. It's not really that rational to assume that we can harvest the benefits of an ever accelerating knowledge explosion while at the same time keeping things more or less the same.

Another point...

It's not at all a given that we have enough time available to fully analyze all the complexities of a change as fundamental as either getting rid of men, or radically changing them. You know, if your house is on fire you don't really have time for getting out the floor plans and contemplating new building codes etc. You may instead have to do the best you can with what you've got on the spot and hope it works out.
Again, there's zero reason to believe that a world of only women would be any less violent. If your goal is to reduce violence, you'd need to support the notion that women are inherently less violent. Pointing out the behavior of men in a patriarchal context doesn't do the trick.
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Haven't you known any violent women, by the way? I sure have. Surely you've known some women with anger issues who have at least seemed prone to violence, no?
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Re: Would Humanity Be Better Off Without Men?

Post by Terrapin Station »

I can't embed this unfortunately (it's "age-restricted") but this is worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vHedNHx49c
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