How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

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impermanence
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by impermanence »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:05 pm
impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:39 am
Let me simplify.

If you believe that somehow you are smarter than most everybody else, please reconsider.
I can be pretty arrogant, but the discrepancy we're talking about in this thread doesn't bother me. Maybe it's that I can be so arrogant that I have no expectation that other people will agree with me, and it usually doesn't matter enough to me if they follow my preferences.

On the other hand, I realize that if I were smart enough I could much better figure out how to manipulate people to go along with me anyway. So I don't think I'm smart enough in that regard . . . or at least I'm too lazy to bother with it.

And on the third hand, I sincerely like most people. I just like to harass other people who seem to think they're smarter than everyone else, which is thankfully not how most people in the world come across most of the time.
Smart people are [a dime a dozen] a wonderful thing, but just the same, smart doesn't mean too much. Intelligence is just a tool [and one used without a whole lot of skill by most (IMO)].

I have always been surrounded by highly intelligent people but I can tell you that the most functional providers [the ones that help people the most] draw on their compassion, not their intelligence to effect superior care. Knowing what you're doing is just the first step. Understanding what others need defines the rest of the path.

I have met and spent time with well over 100,000 patients in my years in practice and all but a few were pretty darn smart if you get to know them.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by Terrapin Station »

impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:40 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:05 pm

I can be pretty arrogant, but the discrepancy we're talking about in this thread doesn't bother me. Maybe it's that I can be so arrogant that I have no expectation that other people will agree with me, and it usually doesn't matter enough to me if they follow my preferences.

On the other hand, I realize that if I were smart enough I could much better figure out how to manipulate people to go along with me anyway. So I don't think I'm smart enough in that regard . . . or at least I'm too lazy to bother with it.

And on the third hand, I sincerely like most people. I just like to harass other people who seem to think they're smarter than everyone else, which is thankfully not how most people in the world come across most of the time.
Smart people are [a dime a dozen] a wonderful thing, but just the same, smart doesn't mean too much. Intelligence is just a tool [and one used without a whole lot of skill by most (IMO)].

I have always been surrounded by highly intelligent people but I can tell you that the most functional providers [the ones that help people the most] draw on their compassion, not their intelligence to effect superior care. Knowing what you're doing is just the first step. Understanding what others need defines the rest of the path.

I have met and spent time with well over 100,000 patients in my years in practice and all but a few were pretty darn smart if you get to know them.


Yeah, I agree that most people are pretty smart, and I also think that intelligence is about being able to gain and process information to meet one's goals (which could be anything).
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chewybrian
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by chewybrian »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 9:52 am If other people get to take themselves seriously, why shouldn't you take yourself seriously as well? And why shouldn't you expect others to take you seriously? Other people expect you to take them seriously. Why quietly get out of their way and let them have the upper hand?

Choosing to be the underdog? Is this the "philosophical" solution?
YES, this is the philosophical solution. Why was Socrates the wisest? If you try to act as a philosopher, then you must quickly see how little you know, and naturally not wish to take yourself too seriously. When Alexander the Great met Diogenes, which was the philosopher? Which achieved his goals? Alexander wanted the world; Diogenes asked for some sunlight to warm himself.

The end result of limiting your certainty is that you become calmer, less judgmental and friendlier. You are happier on the inside, and your experience on the outside is usually better, as people respond more positively to the new you. In the end, I think you will be better off trying to be a good person than trying to get ahead at all costs. You can gain respect, but more importantly self-respect. If you do not gain some perceived advantage, remember that there is always a price to be paid, and defining the 'winner' is not always so easy:
For how much is lettuce sold? Fifty cents, for instance. If another, then, paying fifty cents, takes the lettuce, and you, not paying it, go without them, don't imagine that he has gained any advantage over you. For as he has the lettuce, so you have the fifty cents which you did not give. So, in the present case, you have not been invited to such a person's entertainment, because you have not paid him the price for which a supper is sold. It is sold for praise; it is sold for attendance. Give him then the value, if it is for your advantage. But if you would, at the same time, not pay the one and yet receive the other, you are insatiable, and a blockhead. Have you nothing, then, instead of the supper? Yes, indeed, you have: the not praising him, whom you don't like to praise; the not bearing with his behavior at coming in., Epictetus, "The Enchiridion"
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
baker
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

chewybrian wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:47 pmThe end result of limiting your certainty is that you become calmer, less judgmental and friendlier.
Damn it, I don't want my peace of mind to come at such a cost!
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:39 amLet me simplify.
If you believe that somehow you are smarter than most everybody else, please reconsider.
Riiight. And you have the right to tell me that because you're so much smarter than me.
baker
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:20 am/.../ These are good examples because very few people agree with me on either of them. They're maybe not good examples because expressing them doesn't create very obvious social or legal problems, but bringing up those sorts of examples will quickly get things off track anyway.
But these differences aren't everyday problems. It's for the most part easy enough to think differently on big issues. It's the "little" everyday differences that can get one down.
So how do I handle the fact that I think so differently about these things? Well, most of the time I just don't bother bringing them up.
How about some everyday problems, such as people cutting in front of you in the waiting line, tailgating you, refusing to pay you for your services, and such?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 4:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:20 am/.../ These are good examples because very few people agree with me on either of them. They're maybe not good examples because expressing them doesn't create very obvious social or legal problems, but bringing up those sorts of examples will quickly get things off track anyway.
But these differences aren't everyday problems. It's for the most part easy enough to think differently on big issues. It's the "little" everyday differences that can get one down.
So how do I handle the fact that I think so differently about these things? Well, most of the time I just don't bother bringing them up.
How about some everyday problems, such as people cutting in front of you in the waiting line, tailgating you, refusing to pay you for your services, and such?
I can't say that I have particularly philosophical views about line-cutting or tailgating or anything like that, especially not where it's at odds with what people actually do. I don't see stuff like line-cutting as very important, either.

Refusing to pay for something--I'd have a problem with contractual fraud, but I'm also careful to safeguard against it (because of a long history of working as a contractor for my services). But having a problem with contractual fraud isn't an example where I'm at odds with any norms.

I'd have to think of something that counts as an "everyday issue" where I'm at odds with a norm due to philosophical reasons, but I'm not sure I'll be able to think of something there, aside from maybe wishing that we had a culture that was very pro casual, nonmonogamous sex or something like that.
impermanence
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by impermanence »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 3:57 pm
impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:39 amLet me simplify.
If you believe that somehow you are smarter than most everybody else, please reconsider.
Riiight. And you have the right to tell me that because you're so much smarter than me.
It depends on what you mean by "smart." IQ-wise, maybe, maybe not. I believe that most of what people think of as "smart" is gained through experience, so if you are 30yo and I am more than twice your age, then I would hope that I am smarter.
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chewybrian
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by chewybrian »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 3:55 pm
chewybrian wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:47 pmThe end result of limiting your certainty is that you become calmer, less judgmental and friendlier.
Damn it, I don't want my peace of mind to come at such a cost!
I never found it any other way, and I would say it is a small price to pay.

It seems strange to me that you would be fighting this idea, as it seems to be the very heart of philosophy. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Uncertainty grows, but anger, resentment, wishful thinking and such diminish. You never get everything you want, but you learn to stop wanting things you don't really need, and to appreciate the things you do have.

If you can think of a better way to get ice, I'd like to hear it...
/yid]
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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LuckyR
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by LuckyR »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 6:35 am
LuckyR wrote: January 5th, 2021, 5:07 amI would look at it the exact opposite way. Rather than label an individual as a philosopher then observe their technique for handling other people, I would observe how individuals handle other people then label then as stoics, or existentialists or relativists etc
How does that help you in dealing with everyday problems?
I handle everyday problems in two general ways stratified by my goal in the particular situation. One situation is where I am seeking to accomplish a goal and the power structure opposes me. The other is one where the power structure has a goal and I don't really care much about what happens (I am fortunate enough to be insulated against many potential issues that the power structure holds over others). In the latter situation I amuse myself by doing what happens to strike me in the moment. I might make fun of the power structure to amuse myself and my friends, or I might honestly point out the shortcomings of the power structure's plans to honestly try to save them from making a mistake, or I might stay silent and let them drive into the ditch.

OTOH if I have a goal in opposition to those in power, then my goal is to win, ie meet my goal. The way I've found to accomplish this doesn't lie through the merits of my argument, rather in learning the motivation of the power structure. Once you know what drives folks, you can align yourself in such a way that the power structure will (perhaps reluctantly) support you, or at least they will ignore you (allowing you to do as you prefer).
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

chewybrian wrote: January 5th, 2021, 7:45 pmIt seems strange to me that you would be fighting this idea, as it seems to be the very heart of philosophy. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Uncertainty grows, but anger, resentment, wishful thinking and such diminish.
I wish I were so lucky!
I grew up in a culture where it was beaten into us (sometimes literally) that we're worthless and clueless. I've never experienced "The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know" to be the case, as not knowing and uncertainty have always been the default to begin with.
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chewybrian
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by chewybrian »

baker wrote: January 7th, 2021, 6:19 am
chewybrian wrote: January 5th, 2021, 7:45 pmIt seems strange to me that you would be fighting this idea, as it seems to be the very heart of philosophy. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Uncertainty grows, but anger, resentment, wishful thinking and such diminish.
I wish I were so lucky!
I grew up in a culture where it was beaten into us (sometimes literally) that we're worthless and clueless. I've never experienced "The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know" to be the case, as not knowing and uncertainty have always been the default to begin with.
You'd be in the smallest imaginable minority if your upbringing consisted of real wisdom flowing down on you like Niagara Falls. Everybody gets a rough start and gets fed a lot of BS to one degree or another. Sometimes it's from well-meaning people trying to 'protect' you from reality. Sometimes it's from selfish people trying to control you for their own selfish ends. When you decide to take up philosophy, you choose to actively pursue wisdom, mostly on your own and mostly for your own benefit (IMO).

I don't see where you have to give up anything that you would want to keep. You can discard prejudice, false preconceptions, wishful BS ideas of the way you would like the world to be, unfounded fears of things you don't understand. What is all that but unwanted baggage? What have you lost in deciding to go after wisdom, other than a false certainty that your prior understanding of the world was the truth? You could at least lose the idea that it was true that you were worthless; that should be enough of a payoff. Everyone has value because they are unique, but they can discard their value by not living up to their potential, by not choosing virtue over vice. Philosophy should encourage virtue because it is wise.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
baker
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

Oh, you're too kind! I have to think about what to reply.
Steve3007
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by Steve3007 »

baker wrote:I grew up in a culture where it was beaten into us (sometimes literally) that we're worthless and clueless.
Jeez. Were your raised by sadistic Irish nuns or something?
baker
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Re: How does a philosopher handle everyday problems with other people?

Post by baker »

No, just a good old-fashioned European country.
I suppose what I say is egregious for the delicate modern ears, but back then, it was perfectly normal.
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