Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

baker wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:35 am
NickGaspar wrote: March 5th, 2021, 4:17 am
baker wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:56 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 5:02 pmAnd you are failing to acknowledge that claims made by all magisteria's are acceptable to critical evaluation of their logical foundations. IF you deny that you are guilty of committing a Special Pleading fallacy.
You can argue that point successfully when your picture is printed on money.
Another logical fallacy....
If only. Philosophers love to live in la-la land.
Another fallacy. You are committing logical fallacies independent of the fact you mentioned.
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:33 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:28 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:16 pm
Yes.....sure...like you didn't write "4sided triangle" and I had to copy your statement. We know how honest you are mate.
That was an expression for the inherently illogical, that may or may not exist (as I said 5-10 times). Where is the experiment? If you are honest, you will copy that part too I'm sure.
"Where is the experiment? ".....That was an expression for philosophical question about an irrational part of the universe........
What philosophical question? Tell me.
Pls go way back in the discussion and find my first comment on your failed example about a "irrational" universe and 4 sided triangles.
I am done copying your own statement just because you deny them.
baker
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by baker »

NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:58 am
baker wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:35 am
NickGaspar wrote: March 5th, 2021, 4:17 am
baker wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:56 pm You can argue that point successfully when your picture is printed on money.
Another logical fallacy....
If only. Philosophers love to live in la-la land.
Another fallacy. You are committing logical fallacies independent of the fact you mentioned.
La-la land it is.
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

baker wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:03 am
NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:58 am
baker wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:35 am
NickGaspar wrote: March 5th, 2021, 4:17 am Another logical fallacy....
If only. Philosophers love to live in la-la land.
Another fallacy. You are committing logical fallacies independent of the fact you mentioned.
La-la land it is.
Argument from la-la land....still a fallacy.
Gertie
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Gertie »

NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 12:56 pm
Gertie wrote: March 6th, 2021, 12:15 pm
(I'm just dropping in on the convo here, so apologies if I'm going over covered ground...)
I think the statement ''A 4 sided triangle exists'' could only be coherent within the context of a different model/understanding of the world, which would make the old definitions of sides and triangles flawed or incomplete in some way.

-Correct. The use of the word affects our current definition in a patch of the Universe where specific laws and observations have shaped those definitions.
A model which says our understanding of geometry is incomplete, or edges and boundaries flash in and out of existence according to probability, or somesuch.
-Well I did the mistake to entertain Atla's ideas about an irrational patch of Universe "existing"in our regular Universe. My goal was to help him understand that our definitions shaped by our "rational" Universe can not be applied on irrational "pockets" of it.

We'd have a new understanding of how the world works then, which might require a different set of rules of logic, and so we'd adjust our language to better describe that new understanding, yes?
-Correct. New concepts and language would be necessary.
But without some new ontological framework, to talk about 4 sided triangles is simply playing with definitions in ways which don't reflect reality appropriately.

-Philosophy of Absurdism.
It's manipulating symbols we use to make sense of the world within the context of a specific model/framework, in ways which don't fit that purpose. I think..
.
-We agree
Exactly.
Atla
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Atla »

NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:02 am
Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:33 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:28 pm
That was an expression for the inherently illogical, that may or may not exist (as I said 5-10 times). Where is the experiment? If you are honest, you will copy that part too I'm sure.
"Where is the experiment? ".....That was an expression for philosophical question about an irrational part of the universe........
What philosophical question? Tell me.
Pls go way back in the discussion and find my first comment on your failed example about a "irrational" universe and 4 sided triangles.
I am done copying your own statement just because you deny them.
I said 5-10 times that that was a common expression for something inherently illogical. You could have Googled the expression instead of lying 5-10 times.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Atla »

It's actually fairly interesting to see that commenters like NickGaspar and Steve3007 don't entirely seem to be able to follow logic, maybe that's why they don't seem to be able to do ontology. The observable universe seems perfectly logical so far (yes even QM, but it can take a few years to get there), you have to be able to tune in to that.
And on the other side there are people like philosopher19 and RJG who seem to take logic to false absolutes, give it predictory powers it cannot have.
True philosophy points to the Moon
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Terrapin Station »

I wasn't following this conversation but how did we wind up reifying rational/irrational in the first place?
Steve3007
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:I wasn't following this conversation but how did we wind up reifying rational/irrational in the first place?
I haven't followed the argument between Atla and NickGaspar, but that happened in the OP.
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:01 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:02 am
Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:33 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:31 pm
"Where is the experiment? ".....That was an expression for philosophical question about an irrational part of the universe........
What philosophical question? Tell me.
Pls go way back in the discussion and find my first comment on your failed example about a "irrational" universe and 4 sided triangles.
I am done copying your own statement just because you deny them.
I said 5-10 times that that was a common expression for something inherently illogical. You could have Googled the expression instead of lying 5-10 times.
An example is not rendered sensical or meaningful just because some people use it. Ad populum fallacious argument. Plus it is a Philosophical useless assumption about the universe.
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:01 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:02 am
Atla wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:33 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:31 pm
"Where is the experiment? ".....That was an expression for philosophical question about an irrational part of the universe........
What philosophical question? Tell me.
Pls go way back in the discussion and find my first comment on your failed example about a "irrational" universe and 4 sided triangles.
I am done copying your own statement just because you deny them.
I said 5-10 times that that was a common expression for something inherently illogical. You could have Googled the expression instead of lying 5-10 times.
And I pointed out for more than 5-10 times that this expression is semantically null.
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:23 pm It's actually fairly interesting to see that commenters like NickGaspar and Steve3007 don't entirely seem to be able to follow logic, maybe that's why they don't seem to be able to do ontology. The observable universe seems perfectly logical so far (yes even QM, but it can take a few years to get there), you have to be able to tune in to that.
And on the other side there are people like philosopher19 and RJG who seem to take logic to false absolutes, give it predictory powers it cannot have.
Let me get this straight. You used a "poisoning the well" logical fallacy by arbitrarily labeling an "irrational" shape "a triangle"...and me and Steve are those who are unable to follow logic??
Now I was the one who reject false absolutes but you fallaciously argued (Special Pleasiding)in favour of "absolute nothing".
Atla
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by Atla »

NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:47 pm
Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:23 pm It's actually fairly interesting to see that commenters like NickGaspar and Steve3007 don't entirely seem to be able to follow logic, maybe that's why they don't seem to be able to do ontology. The observable universe seems perfectly logical so far (yes even QM, but it can take a few years to get there), you have to be able to tune in to that.
And on the other side there are people like philosopher19 and RJG who seem to take logic to false absolutes, give it predictory powers it cannot have.
Let me get this straight. You used a "poisoning the well" logical fallacy by arbitrarily labeling an "irrational" shape "a triangle"...and me and Steve are those who are unable to follow logic??
Now I was the one who reject false absolutes but you fallaciously argued (Special Pleasiding)in favour of "absolute nothing".
I didn't actually label an irrational shape a triangle, it wasn't semantically null, it wasn't an ad populum fallacy, it wasn't an actual 'assumption' about the universe. As for absolute nothing, I didn't actually argue 'for' it. That your mind can't process these things is a demonstration of your inability to entirely follow logic.
True philosophy points to the Moon
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NickGaspar
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by NickGaspar »

Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 10:54 pm
NickGaspar wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:47 pm
Atla wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:23 pm It's actually fairly interesting to see that commenters like NickGaspar and Steve3007 don't entirely seem to be able to follow logic, maybe that's why they don't seem to be able to do ontology. The observable universe seems perfectly logical so far (yes even QM, but it can take a few years to get there), you have to be able to tune in to that.
And on the other side there are people like philosopher19 and RJG who seem to take logic to false absolutes, give it predictory powers it cannot have.
Let me get this straight. You used a "poisoning the well" logical fallacy by arbitrarily labeling an "irrational" shape "a triangle"...and me and Steve are those who are unable to follow logic??
Now I was the one who reject false absolutes but you fallaciously argued (Special Pleasiding)in favour of "absolute nothing".
I didn't actually label an irrational shape a triangle, it wasn't semantically null, it wasn't an ad populum fallacy, it wasn't an actual 'assumption' about the universe. As for absolute nothing, I didn't actually argue 'for' it. That your mind can't process these things is a demonstration of your inability to entirely follow logic.
Cheers mate...
philosopher19
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Re: Pure reason dictates Existence/God is Perfect

Post by philosopher19 »

NickGaspar wrote: March 5th, 2021, 1:37 pm -Sure. Superposition in QM is a phenomenon of real life that contradicts an analytical statement "one thing can only be in one place at a time".
No it isn't. Such an interpretation of any empirical observation cannot be made because such an interpretation is absurd. It is not understandable for us to act as though we have understood it. Alternate interpretations must be sought.
-IT's not a matter of "understanding". Its a matter of a analytical proposition to be valid.
But it's semantically inconsistent. It is contradictory in meaning. So it's not semantically valid (let alone logically valid).
-Α Word's meaning is decided by us.
I.e. the world triangle can mean:
a plane figure with three straight sides and three angles.
a musical instrument consisting of a steel rod bent into a triangle and sounded by being struck with a small steel rod.
a frame used to position the pool balls in snooker and pool.
a drawing instrument in the form of a right-angled triangle.
a frame of three halberds joined at the top to which a soldier was bound for flogging.
an emotional relationship involving a couple and a third person with whom one of them is also involved.
a small brownish Eurasian moth of oak and beech woods.
We understand which common usage is relevant based on context or by offering our preferred definition
The label of a semantic is decided by us. We do not give meanings to meanings. We give labels to meanings. Semantics are a priori, labels or words we ascribe to them are a posteriori.
-I don't know what that means (nothing to be absolute true/ something to be absolutely true). YOu need to provide context to your dichotomy. Without context I can't tell whether are dealing with a false dichotomy. Can you give an example ?
Does the meaning (not word or label) of 'triangle', mean triangle? Is it absolutely true that triangle = triangle?
If by science you include all our objective empirical observations, then yes. Logic(all its rules and principles) is the product of our empirical observations. ITs a two way "street". We observed how our world works and we informed our rules of logic and we now use our logic to inform our hypotheses.
You cannot come to any rational or meaningful theory from empirical observations independently of semantics. Semantics were not made by you. You are given access to them. You use them to interpret your experiences or empirical observations. You can either sincere to them, or insincere to them. The latter of which is the root of all falsehood/evil. The former of which is the root of all progression in terms of truth and goodness.
Empirical, Objective verification has the last word
Regarding truth, Existence (that which all existent meanings, sets, humans, shapes, pigs, apes, dreams, universes are rooted in) has the first and last truth/semantic (word). Semantical consistency is core to any meaningful/rational theory (scientific, religious, philosophical, psychological, mathematical etc.).
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