You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

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Evolution25
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You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Evolution25 »

Erich Fromm according to his book the Art of Loving that you cannot love one person if you cannot love everyone. Do you guys believe in this? Why or why not? He also mentioned that love should NOT be transactional and that you shouldn’t do things for someone because you want something in return. Which is odd because would you give lending ears to your girlfriend or wife(be there for her emotionally) if she is NOT having sex with you(not providing for your sexual desires)?

I personally think that there is a difference between “accepting” everyone and “loving” everyone. For example, I can accept Adolf Hitler for what he has done, I accepted that he was emotionally abused as a child by his father, I accepted that by killing millions of Jews he had changed the world and made society more vigilant of what one damaged man can become and signs we should look for to prevent something like the Holocaust from happening again. But will I ever date someone and even love someone like that? I will have to say no.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by MAYA EL »

No he's completely wrong which is not uncommon in Western Society with all the Neurosis we have
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LuckyR
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by LuckyR »

The kind of "love" that you could have for everyone would have to be (by definition) so common and therefore bland that it hardly would meet the definition of the word "love" for just about everyone.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Pattern-chaser »

I can't help thinking that all human relationships are transactional - I do this for you, and you do that for me, in return - but, if we actually treat them that way, everything goes wrong. Our relationships seem to work better if we pretend there is more altruism and generosity there than is really the case. For a relationship to work, each side must feel that what they get is worth what they gives for it. The give and the take must be roughly balanced. N.B. this perception of balance must be present in both parties, but need not be clear or obvious to anyone outside the relationship.

In short, we do not give in order to receive, but if we give and there is nothing in return, it can't work.

In this context, what is "love"?
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I can't help thinking that all human relationships are transactional - I do this for you, and you do that for me, in return - but, if we actually treat them that way, everything goes wrong. Our relationships seem to work better if we pretend there is more altruism and generosity there than is really the case.
Yes, this is related to the question of whether altruism can ever be said to genuinely exist. It's perfectly possible to define altruism in such a way that it's never deemed to be present because we can always say that people do things because they just liked the feeling of doing them.

I suppose one reason for us being naturally reluctant to explicitly think of either love or altruism in that way is that we're often looking for predictive patterns. Thinking of them in transactional ways might make us more apt to make predictions of future behaviour that we don't like. This is where the concept of "faith" can often come in. It's difficult to express faith in transactional terms, other than by falling back on: "I have faith because I enjoy the feeling of having faith".
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Terrapin Station »

"Erich Fromm according to his book the Art of Loving that you cannot love one person if you cannot love everyone. "

Does he present any sort of justification for that?
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Diascarus
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Diascarus »

"Only a sith deals in absolutes." This is a farce. How can one love without understanding its alter ego hate? Furthermore, the statement should be, you cant love someone until you love yourself. For self love is the most profound. You will never agree with every single living being, nor will you please them. It is true that you may love and still have different beliefs, but some beliefs have clear cut differences and finding the bridge of understanding can be difficult. This seems to me the sort of over arching brain washing that tries to tie in certain attributes to everything, which simply is impossible. Everything needs nourishment, though we all do it differently. All human beings want and need love sure, but not everyone is gonna love the same, and not every one is gonna accept and or expect it in the same way. If anything id call this border line communism of love.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Alias »

Evolution25 wrote: February 7th, 2021, 9:40 am Erich Fromm according to his book the Art of Loving that you cannot love one person if you cannot love everyone.
It's been too long since I read Fromm - was impressed with him at 21 or so - to recall the thrust of that message, so I'll treat is as a new, earnest question.
Do you guys believe in this? Why or why not?
I never believe anything at face value. I ask: What is the significance of 'cannot', rather than 'do not' or 'will not'?
A possible interpretation is that if one is capable of loving, no entity is categorically denied the possibility of being loved.
That is: I can love anyone, regardless of race, creed, physical appearance, age, etc. - but that doesn't mean I will love them all equally, or in the same way, or all the time.
He also mentioned that love should NOT be transactional and that you shouldn’t do things for someone because you want something in return.
Wait. Loving and doing for are not interchangeable. Transactional love would say: I couldn't love you if didn't convert to my faith. That doesn't rule out transactions in all other areas: I'll go to the ballet if you'll come to the ball game. You can still love somebody who is watching a ballet while you're watching a ballgame.
Which is odd because would you give lending ears to your girlfriend or wife(be there for her emotionally) if she is NOT having sex with you(not providing for your sexual desires)?
You'd better, if you don't want to grow old and die alone! There are many situations in a relationship when one person is more needy, more damaged, more lost, more demanding and less stable and giving than the other. In those times, you provide whatever comfort and support you can. Hopefully, the partner you helped back to full strength will be able to do the same when you fall off the mountain. It even happens that one partner will always be the more needy. Love responds accordingly, because love can do nothing else.
I personally think that there is a difference between “accepting” everyone and “loving” everyone.
Of course there is. And wouldn't expect anyone to accept everyone. It's impossible.
For example, I can accept Adolf Hitler for what he has done,
No, you don't. You accept a name, a bookmark in history. You never met the man and have no idea how you would react to or feel about him.
All that "can love everyone" means is: if you meet someone for the first time, you are open to the possibility of loving them.
Fromm:
“If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to all others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism.”
iow, codependency, before it was invented as such.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Evolution25 »

Terrapin Station wrote: February 8th, 2021, 12:10 pm "Erich Fromm according to his book the Art of Loving that you cannot love one person if you cannot love everyone. "

Does he present any sort of justification for that?
Not that I agree with...Fromm also insinuated that love between a man and another man cannot be real love. :cry:
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Evolution25
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Evolution25 »

Hi Alias, you said "i can love everyone, but that doesn't mean I will love them all equally, or in the same way, or all the time" and then later say "All that "can love everyone" means is: if you meet someone for the first time, you are open to the possibility of loving them".

You mentioned "possibility", so it is possible that you might love a person or you might NOT? Will this be based on how they can meet your needs emotionally? Wouldn't this be transactional? I will love you, if you make me feel a certain way. I benefit and you benefit. Like a transaction when you purchase a product.
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Evolution25
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Evolution25 »

Alias, you mentioned "Transactional love would say: I couldn't love you if didn't convert to my faith. That doesn't rule out transactions in all other areas: I'll go to the ballet if you'll come to the ball game. You can still love somebody who is watching a ballet while you're watching a ballgame."

Maybe the person who couldn't love the other person for not converting to their faith does NOT offer anything else that stands out that can compensate for NOT converting to the faith. But if there is something the religious person can powerfully benefit from the non-religious person, then love can exist.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Sy Borg »

Like Alias, I was impressed with Fromm when I was young. I was impressed with Hermann Hesse too, oblivious to the self indulgent and formulaic nature of his prose.

With age, I don't care much for either. I think it's essential to love something (not necessarily someone) in this life - to feel passionate about something. It could be a person, or a pet, or animals or plants in general. It might be the Earth, or space, the arts, one's work, one's hobbies, eating, whatever. If you love something, then your life will be better. It's only necessary to love in some way for peace of mind (even if as a temporary salve). The idea of loving everyone is abstract and unrealistic.

Logically, if it was necessary to feel Agape to experience Philia, Pragma, Storge, Eros or Ludus, then I don't see why the Greeks would have bothered categorising other forms of love. Fromm may have thought that, for instance, a theist's love for their own "team" (with hatred of secularists) is not "real love" due to its conditionality, but that is shifting the definition of love.

Love need not be unconditional and lasting. Fromm's notion that love is work rather than an emotion no doubt applies rather well to marriages, but he is again trying to redefine love as only unstinting unconditional love. Unlike Fromm, I think it important to appreciate the parts of the world that are not human, that humanity's obsessive inward focus is uncentred and spiritually unhealthy.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Tegularius »

Evolution25 wrote: February 7th, 2021, 9:40 am Erich Fromm according to his book the Art of Loving that you cannot love one person if you cannot love everyone.
Unless Fromm said so directly, which doesn't make sense under any interpretation, least of all from someone like him, I can only think of it as your perception of what he actually said.

As close as I can get to it is this quote which has no relationship to what you're saying:
“Love is not primarily a relationship to a specific person; it is an attitude, an orientation of character which determines the relatedness of a person to the world as a whole, not toward one “object” of love. If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to the rest of his fellow men, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism. Yet, most people believe that love is constituted by the object, not by the faculty.”
― Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving
This implies to me that one can have the faculty without having an object just as one can have a talent which seldom gets used.
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Alias »

Evolution25 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 6:58 pm Hi Alias, you said "i can love everyone, but that doesn't mean I will love them all equally, or in the same way, or all the time" and then later say "All that "can love everyone" means is: if you meet someone for the first time, you are open to the possibility of loving them".
The operative and critical word is "can". It means: I am able to love - without specifying the object or setting preconditions or making any other reference to others.
You mentioned "possibility", so it is possible that you might love a person or you might NOT?
Right. I can walk. That doesn't mean I can't or won't ever sit down or run or ride. It doesn't mean I'm required to, or intend to walk around the world, or walk to any particular place at any particular time.
Will this be based on how they can meet your needs emotionally?
Not necessarily. They might not even be aware.
Wouldn't this be transactional?
One can only hope it's reciprocal - and it isn't always, and even when it is, love is hardly ever equal.
I will love you, if you make me feel a certain way.
No. I love someone because they already make me feel that way. Nobody you don't love, or whom you do not find lovable, can make you feel that way, however how hard they try, and their trying won't generate love - only pity and contempt.
I benefit and you benefit. Like a transaction when you purchase a product.
I already explained the difference once. You either love somebody or you don't. They either love you or they don't.
You can make all sorts of deals about all sort of other things with all sorts of people, whether you love them or not.
You can offer your child a trip to the amusement park if he gets all A's, but you can't stop loving him, even if he fails.
Love itself is not negotiable - simply because it's not controllable.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: You Can’t Love One person if You Can’t Love Everyone

Post by Alias »

Evolution25 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 7:04 pm Alias, you mentioned "Transactional love would say: I couldn't love you if didn't convert to my faith.
Notice the example: it's a proclamation of categorical requirement. She's saying: I'm forbidden to love (or have been conditioned to deny love) outside of my faith. If you enter the permitted pool of partner, I can choose you.

Whatever other attractions the might have, or lack, is irrelevant to the example.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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