Objective Morality and God

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Sy Borg wrote: March 15th, 2021, 10:46 pm A cosmic web is all one thing. However, an incident on one side of the universe has zero impact on parts far removed from it. So how we group things is academic.
An incident anywhere in the universe affects all of the universe. For example, the tiniest particle of matter in the universe is connected via gravity to all other matter in the universe. There are probably many other forms of connection too.

But what are these "things" that we might consider grouping? Are they local features of the universe that we give labels to, so that we can talk about them in conversations like this one? Labels are for our convenience; having a label does not render something distinct or separate. I.e. assigning a label does not create a "thing".
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Pattern-chaser wrote:This was, and remains, my understanding of what "universe" means. What (logical?) reason is there to divide it into 'parts'?
What's the significance of adding the word "logical" in brackets there? Generally, if someone were to ask me "what reason is there to do..." I'd assume they're asking me about purpose. I'd assume they're asking me what is the use, or purpose, of doing the thing that completes that question. Is that what you're asking?
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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NickGaspar wrote: March 16th, 2021, 3:56 am The universe can not be called "a thing" or an entity because we don't even know its characteristics or position in the cosmos...
Ah! When I have said "universe" to you, I think I meant what you refer to as "cosmos". I'm after the label you use to refer to all of space-time, along with all of its contents; is that "cosmos"?
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Steve3007 wrote: March 16th, 2021, 6:13 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:This was, and remains, my understanding of what "universe" means. What (logical?) reason is there to divide it into 'parts'?
What's the significance of adding the word "logical" in brackets there? Generally, if someone were to ask me "what reason is there to do..." I'd assume they're asking me about purpose. I'd assume they're asking me what is the use, or purpose, of doing the thing that completes that question. Is that what you're asking?
Excuse me for being confusing. I meant to ask what reason there is to consider the universe as being divided, as opposed to whole? [And I was sort of hoping that that reason, whatever it was, might be an acceptable reason according to the rules and function of logic.]
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Pattern-chaser wrote:I meant to ask what reason there is to consider the universe as being divided, as opposed to whole?
Yes, I realise that. I asked whether you are asking what the purpose/use is of considering the universe like that. I'll assume you are.

The reason to consider the universe as being divided, as opposed to whole, is that it's essential for getting through life, it's essential for coping with it, it's essential for managing it, it's essential for understanding lots of aspects of it, etc.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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The point I was trying to make in a slightly earlier post was that it makes no sense to state "the universe is one thing" or "the universe is ten things" or "the universe is a gazzillion things" as if those statements can stand on their own. It seems obvious to me that the number of things we think that the universe is depends entirely on our present purpose. Our present purpose could dictate that we consider the universe to be one thing. It could dictate that we see it as gazzillions of elementary particles. It could dictate that we divide in two - things bigger than the sun and things smaller than the sun. It could dictate an infinite number of other division systems.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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"Objective morality" exists in the eye of the beholder, and is therefore "subjective".
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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RJG wrote:"Objective morality" exists in the eye of the beholder, and is therefore "subjective".
To avoid any unnecessary confusion caused by different people using words for different things: I recall that you use the word "objective" in a relatively unusual sense. You use it to refer to things that are logically certain, such that to deny them would be self-contradictory. Is that right?
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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RJG wrote:"Objective morality" exists in the eye of the beholder, and is therefore "subjective".
Steve3007 wrote:To avoid any unnecessary confusion caused by different people using words for different things: I recall that you use the word "objective" in a relatively unusual sense.
Steve, a very good point here, as there are seemingly two different usages of the word "objective". But I wouldn't say my usage was "unusual", especially here in a philosophy forum. I use the word "objective" from the philosophical view point, not from the scientific (and the more common?) view point. Since this is a philosophy forum (and not a science forum), then I think my usage is very appropriate and not-unusual.
Wikipedia wrote:In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
Whereas, scientific objectivity is typically determined by "agreement" (consensus) by those in the science community.

Steve3007 wrote:You use it to refer to things that are logically certain, such that to deny them would be self-contradictory. Is that right?
Yes, you are correct.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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RJG wrote:Steve, a very good point, as there are seemingly two different usages of the word "objective". But I wouldn't say my usage was "unusual", especially here in a philosophy forum. I use the word "objective" from the philosophical view point, not from the scientific (and the more common) view point. Since this is a philosophy forum (and not a science forum), then I think my usage is very appropriate and not-unusual.
I think it's a word that has quite a few shades of meaning depending on context. For example, I was having a bit of an argument in this topic with Pattern-chaser about its usage, and I've seen lots of arguments about it around here before. But I'd say my usage probably has more in common with Pattern-chaser's than it does with yours.

I don't really agree that your usage could be classed as the philosophical one and the other one as the scientific one. As I've said in the past, I think the concept you're using it to describe is already well covered by terms like "tautology" or "analytic proposition". But I don't think there's an inherent problem with different people using words in different ways so long as ambiguity doesn't cause unnecessary argument, with people thinking they're disagreeing about an underlying idea when they're really just disagreeing about semantics. That often seems to happen around here, I think. That's why I asked the question about your usage, for clarification.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Wikipedia wrote:In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
Yes, as that introduction to the Wikipedia entry says, "a proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject". So, for example, the truth condition for the proposition "there is a tree in my garden" is the existence of a tree in my garden, so it's an objective proposition. Whereas the truth condition for propositions like "I am having a tree perception" or "I am hungry" or "I like ice cream" are all internal to my mind. So they're subjective propositions.

Objective propositions as those which are claiming something about a proposed real, extra-mental world, and therefore whose truth conditions are about the properties of things in that real, extra-mental world. Subjective propositions as those that are claiming something about the proposer's own mind. Objective propositions are about objects. Objects are things that we propose to be real. "Real" means existing independently of minds.

But we've had this exact same discussion before, a long time ago! I don't suppose it will go any differently this time! :D
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Steve3007 wrote:But I don't think there's an inherent problem with different people using words in different ways so long as ambiguity doesn't cause unnecessary argument... ...That often seems to happen around here
Yes, agreed, ...lots of unnecessary/irrelevant arguing seems to be the result of non-clear word usage.

Steve3007 wrote:Yes, as that introduction to the Wikipedia entry says, "a proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject". So, for example, the truth condition for the proposition "there is a tree in my garden" is the existence of a tree in my garden, so it's an objective proposition.
But the 'truth' of the proposition statement itself is based on the biased perception of a sentient subject.

Steve3007 wrote:Objective propositions are about objects. Objects are things that we propose to be real. "Real" means existing independently of minds.

But we've had this exact same discussion before, a long time ago! I don't suppose it will go any differently this time! :D
Ha, yes, it appears we are again beating a dead horse! I will (again) argue that "objects" has nothing to do with "objectivity" (in my usage of the word), and you will (again) argue otherwise. I am right to me, and you are right to you. And around we go. Where we stop, nobody knows.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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On truth conditions: I see the truth condition of a proposition as being what needs to obtain - what needs to be the case - in order for that proposition to be true. The truth conditions of objective propositions are things that need to be the case in a proposed real, extra-mental world. The truth conditions for subjective propositions are things that need to be the case inside minds. The truth conditions for analytic propositions are that certain symbols need to be agreed to mean certain things in terms of other symbols.
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Re: Objective Morality and God

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG wrote:But the 'truth' of the proposition statement itself is based on the biased perception of a sentient subject.
The truth condition is simply what needs to be the case in order for the proposition to be true. It's not about how we discover whether or not it is the case.
Ha, yes, it appears we are again beating a dead horse! I will (again) argue that "objects" has nothing to do with "objectivity" (in my usage of the word), and you will (again) argue otherwise. I am right to me, and you are right to you. And around we go. Where we stop, nobody knows.
Yes! What an exciting Merry-Go-Round (complete with dead horses) this philosophy business is! :D
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Re: Objective Morality and God

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 16th, 2021, 6:13 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 15th, 2021, 10:46 pm A cosmic web is all one thing. However, an incident on one side of the universe has zero impact on parts far removed from it. So how we group things is academic.
An incident anywhere in the universe affects all of the universe. For example, the tiniest particle of matter in the universe is connected via gravity to all other matter in the universe. There are probably many other forms of connection too.

But what are these "things" that we might consider grouping? Are they local features of the universe that we give labels to, so that we can talk about them in conversations like this one? Labels are for our convenience; having a label does not render something distinct or separate. I.e. assigning a label does not create a "thing".
It would take 90 billion years for the results of a collision 90 billion light years away to have an impact on us on Earth. Yet the Earth is expected to be swallowed by the Sun in 5 billion years' time. The entities are entirely causally disconnected.

What of the space/s where Earth would have been if it had persisted? Would that be impacted by that distant collision so long ago? I think of it like ripples in an ocean. If a boulder topples down a cliff into the ocean, its ripples will only go a certain distance before being dissipated by other waves. So the boulder's waves are causally disconnected from most of an ocean. I think of space similarly - a huge field with waves everywhere - criss-crossing, swamping, boosting, cancelling etc. Really, a case could be made for the arena of human thought having similar dynamics.
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