The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

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RJG
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The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by RJG » February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am

The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Masking and social distancing of our recently vaccinated population is dangerously counter productive. It prevents achieving herd immunity, thereby allowing the virus to continue to grow and mutate further, thereby killing more and more people.

Herd immunity is our ONLY means to stop this virus. No reputable scientist or medical expert disagrees. Social distancing does not stop this virus, nor does it actually slow it down any more than standing in the shade actually slows down the sun's UV rays. Social distancing only slows down the 'rate of infection', much like standing in the shade only slows down the 'rate of sunburns'. The science (empirical evidence) is very clear on this point, for after a year of masking and social distancing measures, the virus has not slowed at all, it has only grown and mutated into a bigger beast killing more people this year than it did last year.

Continued social distancing means continued virus growth and mutation, meaning more deaths next year than this year, and more deaths the following year than next year. Again, if we wish to stop this virus, then herd immunity, and not social distancing, is our ONLY solution. In this case, preventing our only solution only creates a bigger problem (many more deaths).

Herd immunity is achieved by saturating a given population of people (a "herd") with immune people. Immune people are those that have been vaccinated and/or those previous infected (and now have antibodies). Herd immunity works because immune people "break vectors"; they act as physical barriers to the virus spread, thereby protecting nearby vulnerable people. When a virus encounters an immune person, the virus is essentially stopped and removed from the environment (via the immune system of said immune person), which thereby prevents the virus from further transmission. Every virus that encounters (and dies within) an immune person is one less that can infect a vulnerable person.

Vaccination, by itself, cannot give us herd immunity. If immune people are kept away from the herd, then there can be no herd immunity protection. If we continue to mask and social distance our recently vaccinated people, then we have accomplished nothing, except to let the virus continue to grow and mutate into even more variants, some of which the previous vaccination will not protect against.

Keeping the "stoppers" of the virus from stopping the virus is a non-effective means of stopping the virus. Masking our vaccinated people only kills more people.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by evolution » February 23rd, 2021, 11:04 am

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Masking and social distancing of our recently vaccinated population is dangerously counter productive. It prevents achieving herd immunity, thereby allowing the virus to continue to grow and mutate further, thereby killing more and more people.

Herd immunity is our ONLY means to stop this virus. No reputable scientist or medical expert disagrees. Social distancing does not stop this virus, nor does it actually slow it down any more than standing in the shade actually slows down the sun's UV rays.
But, standing in the shade actually stops those non slowed down uv rays hitting the body, just like social distancing enough STOPS the virus hitting the body.

Now, like just about ALL of views I am not picking one side or another. I am just attempting to correct what is claimed to be true.

And, if enough social distancing stop a virus, then that virus will eventually slow down and die out, if it does not get into another animal, which is unlike the standing in the shade as this will never stop the sun from producing uv rays and sending them upon the earth.
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Social distancing only slows down the 'rate of infection', much like standing in the shade only slows down the 'rate of sunburns'. The science (empirical evidence) is very clear on this point, for after a year of masking and social distancing measures, the virus has not slowed at all, it has only grown and mutated into a bigger beast killing more people this year than it did last year.
Well obviously those social distances are not enough. If a virus is still landing upon human beings, then they are not distanced or separated enough.

And, if a virus is growing and mutating, then it can only do this while it stays alive, which it can only do if and when passed from host to host. If, for example, all the hosts were to far apart from each other so that the virus could not transfer or get passed from one host to another host, then that virus could not survive to grow nor to mutate. But this is obvious, correct?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Continued social distancing means continued virus growth and mutation, meaning more deaths next year than this year, and more deaths the following year than next year.
But if a virus is growing and mutating, then this means that what it lives and survives there must be enough of, correct?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Again, if we wish to stop this virus, then herd immunity, and not social distancing, is our ONLY solution. In this case, preventing our only solution only creates a bigger problem (many more deaths).
But if as you say more and more people are dying each year, then more and more people must be getting the virus each, which is exactly what you want, for herd immunity, correct?

You, however, might say that the reason more and more people are dying is because the virus is growing and mutating, but the virus can only grow and mutate, when more and more people get the virus, correct? Or, can the virus grow and mutate if less and less people get the virus?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Herd immunity is achieved by saturating a given population of people (a "herd") with immune people.
Ah okay. But why?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Immune people are those that have been vaccinated and/or those previous infected (and now have antibodies).
Are these so called "immune people" actually immune from getting the virus, or immune from get as sick as they would have before without the virus, or immune to something else?

Also, why would the, so called, "immune people" not, so call, "saturate" a given population? They are, after all, said to be "immune" from a virus?

Furthermore, what would these alleged "immune people" alone achieve by "saturating" a given population?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Herd immunity works because immune people "break vectors"; they act as physical barriers to the virus spread, thereby protecting nearby vulnerable people.
How exactly?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
When a virus encounters an immune person, the virus is essentially stopped and removed from the environment (via the immune system of said immune person), which thereby prevents the virus from further transmission.
Is this a proven fact?

If yes, then how did human beings come up with and create a complete 'immune vaccine" for a virus that had only been around for about a year or so, yet they have not been able to come up with one for a virus, like a flu or a cold, which has been around for bit longer than a year or so?

Is it at all possible that a so called "immune person" could get the corona virus, not get as sick as they would have before, or just get as sick as they would have before, and/or have no symptoms at all, just like some non vaccinated human beings do, but then just pass the virus on to someone who has not yet had the "vaccine"? Or, is this just not possible?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Every virus that encounters (and dies within) an immune person is one less that can infect a vulnerable person.
If the virus can into a, so called, "immune person", then why can it not get out and on and into another before it dies within?

Or, do all and every part of the virus that gets into one who has had a vaccine die almost instantly, if not instantly, before it could be transferred to another?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Vaccination, by itself, cannot give us herd immunity.
But if when one gets vaccinated they are a physical barrier, and the virus dies within them, as you claim they are and happens, then if every one of the herd got vaccinated, then that would be true and full herd immunity, correct?

There, after all, would not be anyone left in the herd that could get that virus afterwards, correct?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
If immune people are kept away from the herd, then there can be no herd immunity protection.
Is there any part of the world where it is suggested to keep immune people from interacting with others?

I though the other way might be more likely to be the case. That is; if you have not yet been vaccinated then it would be recommended to social distance until you get vaccinated. After all the purpose of the vaccine was and still is so that once vaccinated one could then carry on as they were before this virus just transferred to the human being population, correct?

If this is correct, then who, and in what country, is saying or recommending that the vaccinated people stay away or social distance from others?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
If we continue to mask and social distance our recently vaccinated people, then we have accomplished nothing, except to let the virus continue to grow and mutate into even more variants, some of which the previous vaccination will not protect against.
But why would the vaccinated ones have to mask and social distance if according to you the virus will only die when it lands on and/or enters those bodies?

Again, who is telling the vaccinated ones to mask up and social distance?
RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
Keeping the "stoppers" of the virus from stopping the virus is a non-effective means of stopping the virus. Masking our vaccinated people only kills more people.
So, by this logic, if everyone gets vaccinated, and puts masks on, then everyone dies, correct?

If yes, then okay.

But if not, then why not?

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Gertie » February 23rd, 2021, 12:09 pm

RJG

I don't see how that makes sense.

While enough people to effectively confer herd immunity still aren't vaccinated we need to continue taking other measures to lessen the spread as far as practicable. With lockdowns, masks and social distancing.

If you're sure you can't be infected/infect others (and remember the vaccs aren't 100% and post-infection immunity isn't guaranteed I believe), then fine. But the idea of immune peeps going around sniffing up all the germs is daft, because the next person the infected person coughs on gets a dose regardless.

The safest bet is to take all measures poss, until the R rate is negligible. The UK paid for coming out of lockdown while the R rate was barely below 1, and cases shot up again - predictably. And a new mutation arose as a bonus. Stomp the **** hard and fast, using all poss means, that's the lesson. If it had been done that way immediately, a lot of lives would've been saved.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by RJG » February 23rd, 2021, 1:22 pm

Gertie wrote:While enough people to effectively confer herd immunity still aren't vaccinated we need to continue taking other measures to lessen the spread as far as practicable. With lockdowns, masks and social distancing.
I agree we need to continue with masking and social distancing of our vulnerable people. But masking and social distancing of our immune people does not make sense. In fact it is counterproductive.

The protective effects of herd immunity is not like a light switch that suddenly turns on (gives protection) when we reach a specific threshold value (e.g. 60%). This threshold value is just the theoretical point where virus transmission ceases and everyone is protected (including those who were too vulnerable to receive a vaccine).

The more immune people within the herd, the greater the protection to the vulnerable people within the herd. As is, the more healthy life guards we have in a large swimming pool, the more protection to the vulnerable (non-swimmers) that fall into the pool. The more life-guards the better. Once we hit the threshold value, then every vulnerable person is protected.

Gertie wrote:If you're sure you can't be infected/infect others (and remember the vaccs aren't 100% and post-infection immunity isn't guaranteed I believe), then fine. But the idea of immune peeps going around sniffing up all the germs is daft, because the next person the infected person coughs on gets a dose regardless.
Yes, there can be rare exceptions, but in general, immune people are immune to infection, and therefore cannot spread the virus back out into the environment.

If this were not true, then herd immunity would be impossible. If everyone (including immune people) within a community (or "herd") were only "contributors" of the virus, then there could be no protection whatsoever. And if so, then the threshold value (e.g. 60%) of herd immunity would likewise be a meaningless, non-applicable number

Gertie wrote:The safest bet is to take all measures poss, until the R rate is negligible.
Agreed. We can, and should do BOTH, and not exclusively do one or exclusively do the other. One person cannot do both (i.e. practicing social distancing prevents participation in herd immunity). It makes sense to let our vulnerable people continue "social distancing" AND it makes sense to let our immune people participate in achieving herd immunity. (Note: again, in general, immune people are not going to die from covid exposure, nor pass on the virus to others).

***********
Gertie, also remember that "social distancing" does not stop or slow down the virus. It is only a delay tactic until we are able to safely implement herd immunity.
***********

Gertie wrote:The UK paid for coming out of lockdown while the R rate was barely below 1, and cases shot up again - predictably.
Of course. The same applies when we come out of the shade, sunburn cases will shoot up. The mistake many seem to be making is thinking that social distancing somehow stops (or slows down) the virus. It doesn't! And neither does staying in the shade stop or slows down the sun's UV rays. We are playing a yo-yo game. The cases go down, so we then go back outside. The cases go up, so we then go back inside. etc etc.

Staying in the shade, or staying masked and socially distanced, does NOT stop the virus from growing and mutating further. Only herd immunity slows and stops the virus.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Sculptor1 » February 23rd, 2021, 1:36 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People
Rubbish.

People get vaccinated to protect themselves. Although admissions to hospital are reduced amongst the vaccinated, you can still DIE of covid after being vaccinated.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Sculptor1 » February 23rd, 2021, 1:38 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Masking and social distancing of our recently vaccinated population is dangerously counter productive.

The point is the save lives and reduce infection rates throughout the community.
People vaccinated can still infect those who are not.
People who are vaccinated can still die.

Try and THINK before you post.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Sculptor1 » February 23rd, 2021, 1:39 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People
Masking our vaccinated people only kills more people.
LOL

Non sequitur even with your twisted logic.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 23rd, 2021, 1:56 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Masking and social distancing of our recently vaccinated population is dangerously counter productive. It prevents achieving herd immunity, thereby allowing the virus to continue to grow and mutate further, thereby killing more and more people.


You already posted this topic. The conclusion drawn last time was that everyone else has a different understanding of herd immunity than you do.
In theory, herd immunity means not everyone in a community needs to be immune to prevent the spread of a disease. 'Herd immunity describes the phenomenon that at-risk individuals are protected from infection because they are surrounded by immune individuals. The spread of the virus is thus minimised,' Prof van Schaik says. - Link to original article
[My highlighting.]
Pattern-chaser

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 23rd, 2021, 1:58 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 1:38 pm
The point is the save lives and reduce infection rates throughout the community.
People vaccinated can still infect those who are not.
People who are vaccinated can still die.

Exactly. Even the best of our vaccines is only about 90% effective.
Pattern-chaser

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by LuckyR » February 23rd, 2021, 2:33 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 9:22 am
The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Masking and social distancing of our recently vaccinated population is dangerously counter productive. It prevents achieving herd immunity, thereby allowing the virus to continue to grow and mutate further, thereby killing more and more people.

Herd immunity is our ONLY means to stop this virus. No reputable scientist or medical expert disagrees. Social distancing does not stop this virus, nor does it actually slow it down any more than standing in the shade actually slows down the sun's UV rays. Social distancing only slows down the 'rate of infection', much like standing in the shade only slows down the 'rate of sunburns'. The science (empirical evidence) is very clear on this point, for after a year of masking and social distancing measures, the virus has not slowed at all, it has only grown and mutated into a bigger beast killing more people this year than it did last year.

Continued social distancing means continued virus growth and mutation, meaning more deaths next year than this year, and more deaths the following year than next year. Again, if we wish to stop this virus, then herd immunity, and not social distancing, is our ONLY solution. In this case, preventing our only solution only creates a bigger problem (many more deaths).

Herd immunity is achieved by saturating a given population of people (a "herd") with immune people. Immune people are those that have been vaccinated and/or those previous infected (and now have antibodies). Herd immunity works because immune people "break vectors"; they act as physical barriers to the virus spread, thereby protecting nearby vulnerable people. When a virus encounters an immune person, the virus is essentially stopped and removed from the environment (via the immune system of said immune person), which thereby prevents the virus from further transmission. Every virus that encounters (and dies within) an immune person is one less that can infect a vulnerable person.

Vaccination, by itself, cannot give us herd immunity. If immune people are kept away from the herd, then there can be no herd immunity protection. If we continue to mask and social distance our recently vaccinated people, then we have accomplished nothing, except to let the virus continue to grow and mutate into even more variants, some of which the previous vaccination will not protect against.

Keeping the "stoppers" of the virus from stopping the virus is a non-effective means of stopping the virus. Masking our vaccinated people only kills more people.
Why are you posting these threads here? Take them to the Virology Forum or the Epidemiology Forum and see how far you get.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by RJG » February 23rd, 2021, 4:23 pm

evolution wrote:But, standing in the shade actually stops those non slowed down uv rays hitting the body, just like social distancing enough STOPS the virus hitting the body.
Correct. "Staying in the shade" prevents you from being sunburned by the UV rays. But it does not stop the UV rays from continuing to shine. When you go back outside you will get sunburned again.

And likewise - "staying in quarantine" (social distancing yourself) prevents you from being infected by covid. But it does not stop covid from growing and mutating. When you go back outside (in society) you can still get infected by covid, no matter how long you socially isolated yourself.

evolution wrote:And, if enough social distancing stop a virus, then that virus will eventually slow down and die out…
Not so. This is impossible. We can never get "enough" social distancing to stop this virus. It is impossible to stop or slow down the virus via social distancing. Social distancing is essentially hiding from the virus, while we wait for a safe way to implement herd immunity. Virtually every legitimate medical scientist agrees that herd immunity is our ONLY means to stop this virus.

And even if it were possible to socially distance everyone by putting everyone (and every animal) in a spacesuit (without transferring food or water from the outside world) for 10 consecutive and synchronous days, then even one failure to do so would start the whole pandemic all over again once everyone took off their spacesuits on day 11. Remember: this whole global pandemic started with just ONE infection on this entire planet (in Wuhan China).

The really scary thing here is that we now have multiple mutations that each can spawn into global pandemics themselves, and spawn off even more mutations. Now instead of dealing with just one pandemic, we have the potential of dealing with multiple pandemics. If we wait too long to implement herd immunity, then it will be too late for all of us. We can't beat this thing by wearing masks or social distancing, that only gets us deeper in the hole. We can only beat this thing by immune (and young healthy people) taking off their masks and resuming full socialization asap to stop this thing before it gets too big to stop.

evolution wrote:And, if a virus is growing and mutating, then it can only do this while it stays alive, which it can only do if and when passed from host to host.
Correction -- the virus is NOT passed from "host-to-host" (or person-to-person). People's respiratory systems are 'not' directly connected to each other's. The virus is passed from person-to-environment and environment-to-person. The virus can last many hours airborne, and up to 9 days on surfaces. People get infected by being in contaminated environments, with or without other people present.

evolution wrote:If, for example, all the hosts were too far apart from each other so that the virus could not transfer or get passed from one host to another host, then that virus could not survive to grow nor to mutate. But this is obvious, correct?
Not so, and again, people don't get infected from other people (or hosts), they get infected by being in contaminated environments. For example, an infected person that coughed last week on a surface that you touched (and then touched your nose/mouth) this week can still infect you, even if the "host" that coughed on it is now over 100 miles away.

evolution wrote:But if a virus is growing and mutating, then this means that what it lives and survives there must be enough of, correct?
Correct. Since social distancing of everyone (all at the same time) is literally impossible then the virus has plenty of sources to grow (replicate) and mutate.

Look at the actual empirical evidence. With all the social distancing (including masking and lockdowns) that we have implemented, the virus has only grown and mutated from last year. If we keep doing the same thing, then we should expect the same results (more growth and more mutations).

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by RJG » February 23rd, 2021, 4:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:People who are vaccinated can still die.
This is not generally true, this is the rare exception. Yes, there is a slim chance that vaccinated people can still die. But does this mean that they should not participate in achieving the herd immunity (our ONLY solution)?

Good swimmers can still drown. But does this mean you are also against good swimmers trying to save a toddler that fell into a pool, for fear that they themselves might drown?

Ambulance drivers can still get injured/die in a traffic accidents. But does this mean you are also against ambulance drivers responding to traffic accidents, for fear that they themselves might get in an accident?

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Sculptor1 » February 23rd, 2021, 4:33 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 4:23 pm
evolution wrote:And, if enough social distancing stop a virus, then that virus will eventually slow down and die out…
Not so. This is impossible.
Actually it is possible.
No virus can survive more than 9 days without a host.
Therefore it IS possible that a virus strain can die out.
A virus also needs a host to mutate.
The success of a virus infection relies heavily on the viral load, for the virus to over come immune defences, and to propogate.
For these reasons ans many others, outlined by myself and others on this thread ought to show anyone of reasonable intelligence the wisom of maintaining social distancing and mask wearing until the pandemic is over.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by Sculptor1 » February 23rd, 2021, 4:36 pm

RJG wrote:
February 23rd, 2021, 4:31 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:People who are vaccinated can still die.
Yes, there are rare exceptions. Vaccinated people can still die. But does this mean that they should not participate in achieving the herd immunity (our ONLY solution)?
"Herd Immunity" is participated in BY vaccination.
There is no reason to collect infection from others.
Good swimmers can still drown. But does this mean you are also against good swimmers trying to save a toddler that fell into a pool, for fear that they themselves might drown?
Possibly the most stupid analogy I have ever read.

Ambulance drivers can still get injured/die in a traffic accidents. But does this mean you are also against ambulance drivers responding to traffic accidents, for fear that they themselves might get in an accident?
Ooops. LOL
No - your analogies get even more stupid.

The best thing a person can do to contribute to her immunity is to get vaccinated.
There is nothing more to say.

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Re: The Dangerous Irrationality of Masking our Vaccinated People

Post by RJG » February 23rd, 2021, 4:37 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:...maintaining social distancing and mask wearing until the pandemic is over.
And how's that working for us so far? Are there more or less deaths than last year?

If we keep doing the same thing, then we should expect the same result. In fact, isn't that the definition of "insanity" - doing the same thing and expecting a different result?

************
Pattern-chaser wrote:'Herd immunity describes the phenomenon that at-risk individuals are protected from infection because they are surrounded by immune individuals.
Bingo! -- We can't get herd immunity by social distancing immune people away from the herd. Herd immunity prevents further transmission of the virus to a neighboring vulnerable person, by "surrounding" (not socially distancing from) the vulnerable person.

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