The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

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Empiricist-Bruno
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The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

The Golden Horse Shoe Killer had finished his massive crime spree long ago when he was apprehended.

He told investigators that there was a guy coming into his head that made him do what he did, and he didn't want that to happen and when he finally got the upper hand on that guy, he managed to block him out for good and the crime spree that he had been enabling was over, just like that. At his trial, he apologized to all those he had hurt, claiming to be truly sorry.

I believe him but I self-question, "Am I being fooled by a skilled con?" Am I willing to believe that it wasn't really him that did the crimes but some other imaginary person who now can no longer dwell in his head? And if I believe that, am I as crazy as Trump supporters are? [Do Trump supporters ever entertain the idea that they (not the other) may be crazy?]

Also, there are two perspectives which are important to bear in mind, the first being crime fighting (or discouraging crime) and the second being retributions for past crimes committed.

If you are a criminal like him who has won the battle against inner demons but still remain uncaught, should there be some means to self-identify to your community and have your victory over evil celebrated?

It is my impression that this Golden Horse Shoe killer does not need to be locked up as his crime spree ended long ago and he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to live without hurting people any more.

I am thinking, isn't there a better way here for people who stop committing evil acts after getting the upper hand on some inner demons? If you can stop for 5 -10 years from engaging into demonic crimes because you won the battle for your head, shouldn't there be a path for you to admit the evil crimes, come clear and voluntarily try to work to repay your debt but without any involuntary jail term associated with it. The need for victims to know what happened and get a "sorry" is sometimes more important than having a criminal who does not recognize his own crimes as his anymore do some jail term (Isn't it like punishing a puppy who urinated on the floor after he did it and not as he is doing it; it doesn't help.)


The point of this idea is two folds: if it is true that a person can beat his inner evil then it is only natural to think that such person would want to make amends for those sins. If not, then there would be less credibility to someone who gets caught later, such as this Golden Horse Shoe killer, and make the claim he has made. The other point is that by escaping involuntary punishment, you find yourself rewarding good behavior and that is something that society needs to learn to do more of for its own good.

You have comments or reaction to such an idea?
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by LuckyR »

Okay, several things: first a serial killer should be locked up. I am completely unintetested in considering the possibility that what drove him to kill is currently resolved. Think about it, each one of us has a number one thorn in our side, that if eliminated would make our lives better, perhaps a lot better. Society should not encourage everyone to kill our number one antagonist, with a "get out of jail free" card, that is redeemable if we only kill one time. Killing "only" one person is very far out of the mainstream and makes one an outlier. An outlier in prison, by my reckoning.
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm The Golden Horse Shoe Killer had finished his massive crime spree long ago when he was apprehended.

He told investigators that there was a guy coming into his head that made him do what he did, and he didn't want that to happen and when he finally got the upper hand on that guy, he managed to block him out for good and the crime spree that he had been enabling was over, just like that. At his trial, he apologized to all those he had hurt, claiming to be truly sorry.

I believe him but I self-question, "Am I being fooled by a skilled con?"

I think the way you are expressing this is slanting the discussion. Here is a slightly different perspective.

Our responsibility to the public - i.e. to this man's potential future victims - is to ensure (as far as we can) that he is no longer a danger. This is a neutral and decent response, I think.

But your way of expressing it is somewhat fraught. Are you being fooled? Is your ego or self-image going to be dented if this man fools you? The way you phrase it says yes, it is. So you approach the matter in an attitude of self-defence. Defence against ego-damage, not physical-damage, that is. Perhaps this will lead you to a poor decision, because your priority is not to find the best solution to the problem, but to deal with the problem in a way that doesn't make you look like a fool?


Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm Am I willing to believe that it wasn't really him that did the crimes but some other imaginary person who now can no longer dwell in his head? And if I believe that, am I as crazy as Trump supporters are?

He did the crime, apparently under the influence of a mental disorder. The issue is whether that disorder was real, whether it has now gone, and whether it can come back again, isn't it?

[ I assert that there is no help for Trump supporters. They are beyond help, and should probably be placed into protective custody (padded walls, etc) for their own safety and that of the public at large. ]
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm The Golden Horse Shoe Killer had finished his massive crime spree long ago when he was apprehended.
...

You have comments or reaction to such an idea?
Who the hell is The Golden Horse Shoe Killer?

Do you have a link?
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:11 am Okay, several things: first a serial killer should be locked up. I am completely unintetested in considering the possibility that what drove him to kill is currently resolved. Think about it, each one of us has a number one thorn in our side, that if eliminated would make our lives better, perhaps a lot better. Society should not encourage everyone to kill our number one antagonist, with a "get out of jail free" card, that is redeemable if we only kill one time. Killing "only" one person is very far out of the mainstream and makes one an outlier. An outlier in prison, by my reckoning.
I am surprised by your reply. Many police officers are serial killers and no one would think of locking them up as they kill people legally. I guess you meant serial murderers.

Reading your response, I get the feeling that you think I would support/excuse one murder by one person and I wonder where you got that.

The Golden Horse Shoe killer, as I dig more into the case, had stopped killing for 5 years at some point and then murdered again, and so I now see a problem with my suggestion because you can't really tell for sure that someone is through with murder after any given period of time. And you now even have older serial killers, as there was one in my city of Toronto not so long ago.

If a murderer believes that he/she has grown up and isn't anymore the person who killed many others and that he/she gained the ability to keep his/her demons in check (at least for now) then the thought is going through my mind that that person is actually innocent of the murders. Many people are found innocent of murders due to mental illness and I think this is fair in most cases.

Monstrous series of crimes aren't necessarily evidence of monsters; they may be evidence of serious mental illness. The dividing line between chasing and locking up monsters and chasing and locking up mentally ill people (or people who have in the past suffered from mental illness) is blurry. Locking up the mentally ill for demons that took control of them when they appear to want to apologize for the evils that their demons did does not help the cause of justice in my opinion.

I am beginning to suspect that mentally ill people's actions are what justifies the presence of a criminal justice system. If you remove mental illness then there won't be any need for a criminal justice system dealing with monstrous violence.

For instance, take the guy who murdered John Lennon. He still stands behind that murder and appears not to have grown remorse or dissociate himself from the killing. You can keep such guys locked up because evil has a free pass in that person's mind and there is no reason to think he will be able to grow moral bones and so that would be releasing a time bomb.
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:28 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm The Golden Horse Shoe Killer had finished his massive crime spree long ago when he was apprehended.
...

You have comments or reaction to such an idea?
Who the hell is The Golden Horse Shoe Killer?

Do you have a link?
My post is essentially a work of fiction that I am dealing with in my mind. Yes, it is inspired by a real worldly case but from experience, we know that one thing that motivates killers is fame and so I am happy to not name the actual killer that inspired my post and I would appreciate if no one tried to do so.
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:22 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm The Golden Horse Shoe Killer had finished his massive crime spree long ago when he was apprehended.

He told investigators that there was a guy coming into his head that made him do what he did, and he didn't want that to happen and when he finally got the upper hand on that guy, he managed to block him out for good and the crime spree that he had been enabling was over, just like that. At his trial, he apologized to all those he had hurt, claiming to be truly sorry.

I believe him but I self-question, "Am I being fooled by a skilled con?"

I think the way you are expressing this is slanting the discussion. Here is a slightly different perspective.

Our responsibility to the public - i.e. to this man's potential future victims - is to ensure (as far as we can) that he is no longer a danger. This is a neutral and decent response, I think.

But your way of expressing it is somewhat fraught. Are you being fooled? Is your ego or self-image going to be dented if this man fools you? The way you phrase it says yes, it is. So you approach the matter in an attitude of self-defence. Defence against ego-damage, not physical-damage, that is. Perhaps this will lead you to a poor decision, because your priority is not to find the best solution to the problem, but to deal with the problem in a way that doesn't make you look like a fool?


Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm Am I willing to believe that it wasn't really him that did the crimes but some other imaginary person who now can no longer dwell in his head? And if I believe that, am I as crazy as Trump supporters are?

He did the crime, apparently under the influence of a mental disorder. The issue is whether that disorder was real, whether it has now gone, and whether it can come back again, isn't it?

[ I assert that there is no help for Trump supporters. They are beyond help, and should probably be placed into protective custody (padded walls, etc) for their own safety and that of the public at large. ]
Pattern-chaser: No, this isn't about me. If I get fooled, it means the killer will kill again and my concern is to prevent victimization of a fellow citizen and avoiding being fooled is a means to that end and not a self-preservation interested.

Yes, that's right
on. We should also attempt to find why some people seem more vulnerable to such diseases so we can be in a better position to perhaps help them confront there evils before anything bad happens.
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 28th, 2021, 4:27 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:11 am Okay, several things: first a serial killer should be locked up. I am completely unintetested in considering the possibility that what drove him to kill is currently resolved. Think about it, each one of us has a number one thorn in our side, that if eliminated would make our lives better, perhaps a lot better. Society should not encourage everyone to kill our number one antagonist, with a "get out of jail free" card, that is redeemable if we only kill one time. Killing "only" one person is very far out of the mainstream and makes one an outlier. An outlier in prison, by my reckoning.
I am surprised by your reply. Many police officers are serial killers and no one would think of locking them up as they kill people legally. I guess you meant serial murderers.

Reading your response, I get the feeling that you think I would support/excuse one murder by one person and I wonder where you got that.

The Golden Horse Shoe killer, as I dig more into the case, had stopped killing for 5 years at some point and then murdered again, and so I now see a problem with my suggestion because you can't really tell for sure that someone is through with murder after any given period of time. And you now even have older serial killers, as there was one in my city of Toronto not so long ago.

If a murderer believes that he/she has grown up and isn't anymore the person who killed many others and that he/she gained the ability to keep his/her demons in check (at least for now) then the thought is going through my mind that that person is actually innocent of the murders. Many people are found innocent of murders due to mental illness and I think this is fair in most cases.

Monstrous series of crimes aren't necessarily evidence of monsters; they may be evidence of serious mental illness. The dividing line between chasing and locking up monsters and chasing and locking up mentally ill people (or people who have in the past suffered from mental illness) is blurry. Locking up the mentally ill for demons that took control of them when they appear to want to apologize for the evils that their demons did does not help the cause of justice in my opinion.

I am beginning to suspect that mentally ill people's actions are what justifies the presence of a criminal justice system. If you remove mental illness then there won't be any need for a criminal justice system dealing with monstrous violence.

For instance, take the guy who murdered John Lennon. He still stands behind that murder and appears not to have grown remorse or dissociate himself from the killing. You can keep such guys locked up because evil has a free pass in that person's mind and there is no reason to think he will be able to grow moral bones and so that would be releasing a time bomb.
I (and many others) have an interest in locking up police officers who murder citizens.

As to trying to differentiate between murders commited by those with mental illness and those without, there is no difference, since the purpose of incarceration is public safety. That is if murderer A kills because he hated the victim and murderer B had a hallucination that the victim was attacking him and he killed the victim to "protect" himself, it doesn't matter, murderer B if left in society is likely to kill again, thus the need for incarceration (perhaps not in a prison).
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Re: The Golden Horse Shoe Serial killer and criminal law reforms

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: March 28th, 2021, 7:18 pm Pattern-chaser: No, this isn't about me.
Exactly. My suggestion is that you keep it that way, and don't set yourself up to favour one conclusion over another before you have even begun your consideration of the issue in hand. If one conclusion bids you consider yourself a fool, and another doesn't, you will surely be encouraged to value the latter conclusion more highly, even before you consider the evidence? You are trying to bias your own investigation.
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