The only true cause of death is birth.

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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

The only true cause of death is birth.

Anything that is born will die. Everything that is created will be destroyed.

When it comes to so-called "causes of death", the rest is at best merely a matter of perspective, if not a deceptive shell game.

For example, consider a cigarette smoker who dies with lung cancer shortly after catching the common cold.

Would it even make sense to debate about whether the so-called "cause of death" was (1) cigarettes, (2) suicide, (3) lung cancer, or (4) the common cold? I propose that it would make no sense to have such a debate or to assert that one of those is or could be the cause.

No human can be saved from death. Thus, nothing else causes a human to die because the death is inevitable from the birth. The human will die regardless of whether they smoke, whether they catch a cold, whether they get lung cancer, whether they drive a motorcycle, whether they are suicidal, or whether they desperately cling to life in terrified fear of death. Neither the presence nor absence of any of those things--or any other things like them--will prevent the person from dying. Thus, those things and anything like them cannot be a true cause of death.

One could argue instead that a given event or factor (e.g. the presence of smoking versus non-smoking) would speed up the time of the death. Slightly accelerating or postponing the timing of something is very different than causing it. Moreover, analogous to accelerations or decelerations in Newtonian physics, these factors are cumulative not mutually exclusive, and are thus in practice immeasurable and countless if not infinite. For example, if 8 dogs are pulling a sled, it does not make sense to say which dog is the cause of the sled moving, nor is it true that only the dogs are responsible for the sled moving. Rather, there are countless and presumably infinite factors at play, such as but not limited to friction, gravity, the weather, and how much the guy riding the sled ate for breakfast.

Imagine the proverbial sled is going down a steep ice-hill, having black-hole-like properties, and thus the sled will reach its destination very soon regardless of any of those other factors, and some of the dogs are futilely trying to pull the sled up the hill but can only at best slightly decrease the rate of acceleration. That would be a more accurate analogy to anything attempting to prevent human death, such as exercising daily instead of smoking cigarettes daily. There is no preventing death, and no practical way to significantly change its timing on cosmological scales. The length of a human life is but an itsy bitsy teeny tiny sliver in cosmological spacetime.

As a human, each of us is going to die very soon. Every human dies quickly.

There is no cause of death, besides birth itself.

Once born, the quick soon death is inevitable.

We are going down the black-hole-like ice-hill quickly, from birth to death, and no dog can reverse the trajectory.

When one of us humans reach the bottom of the ice-hill (human death), it is absurd and nonsensical--worse than false--to point to any one dog, or even a few dogs, or even dogs as a whole versus gravity or what the sled rider ate, and accuse that thing of being the cause. It doesn't matter what any of the dogs did, and what the rider ate or didn't eat, and thus those kinds of things cannot logically be considered causes.

If you take the cause away, then the result cannot happen. Therefore, if you take an alleged cause away, and the result does still happen, then the alleged cause is no true cause at all, reductio ad absurdum.

Thus, the only cause of death is birth.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.

Anything that is born will die. Everything that is created will be destroyed.

When it comes to so-called "causes of death", the rest is at best merely a matter of perspective, if not a deceptive shell game.

For example, consider a cigarette smoker who dies with lung cancer shortly after catching the common cold.

Would it even make sense to debate about whether the so-called "cause of death" was (1) cigarettes, (2) suicide, (3) lung cancer, or (4) the common cold? I propose that it would make no sense to have such a debate or to assert that one of those is or could be the cause.

No human can be saved from death. Thus, nothing else causes a human to die because the death is inevitable from the birth. The human will die regardless of whether they smoke, whether they catch a cold, whether they get lung cancer, whether they drive a motorcycle, whether they are suicidal, or whether they desperately cling to life in terrified fear of death. Neither the presence nor absence of any of those things--or any other things like them--will prevent the person from dying. Thus, those things and anything like them cannot be a true cause of death.

One could argue instead that a given event or factor (e.g. the presence of smoking versus non-smoking) would speed up the time of the death. Slightly accelerating or postponing the timing of something is very different than causing it. Moreover, analogous to accelerations or decelerations in Newtonian physics, these factors are cumulative not mutually exclusive, and are thus in practice immeasurable and countless if not infinite. For example, if 8 dogs are pulling a sled, it does not make sense to say which dog is the cause of the sled moving, nor is it true that only the dogs are responsible for the sled moving. Rather, there are countless and presumably infinite factors at play, such as but not limited to friction, gravity, the weather, and how much the guy riding the sled ate for breakfast.

Imagine the proverbial sled is going down a steep ice-hill, having black-hole-like properties, and thus the sled will reach its destination very soon regardless of any of those other factors, and some of the dogs are futilely trying to pull the sled up the hill but can only at best slightly decrease the rate of acceleration. That would be a more accurate analogy to anything attempting to prevent human death, such as exercising daily instead of smoking cigarettes daily. There is no preventing death, and no practical way to significantly change to its timing on cosmological scales. The length of a human life is but an itsy bitsy teeny tiny sliver in cosmological spacetime.

As a human, each of us is going to die very soon. Every human dies quickly.

There is no cause of death, besides birth itself.

Once born, the death is inevitable.

We are going down the black-hole-like ice-hill quickly, from birth to death, and no dog can reverse the trajectory.

When one of us humans reach the bottom of the ice-hill (human death), it is absurd and nonsensical, worse than false, to point to any one dog, or even a few dogs, or even dogs as a whole versus gravity or what the sled rider ate, and accuse that thing of being the cause. It doesn't matter what any of the dogs did, and what the rider ate or didn't eat, and thus those kinds of things cannot logically be considered causes.

If you take the cause away, then the result cannot happen. Therefore, if you take an alleged cause away, and the result does still happen, then the alleged cause is no true cause at all, reductio ad absurdum.

Thus, the only cause of death is birth.
This is a perfect example of why whereas telescopes and microscopes both magnify views, they should not be used interchangeably. You're using a panorama lens (zooming out to view lives in their entirety and beyond), whereas coroners and epidemiologists care about the actual circumstances that cause death right now in order to improve lives of folks within their own (admittedly finite) lifetimes.

Your view, while accurate, technically is more likely to be misused to label everything futile, than to add valuable insight.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Thank you for your reply, LuckyR! :)

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm [...]whereas coroners and epidemiologists care about the actual circumstances that cause death right now...
I propose they can't truly and honestly care about that because that is nonsense.

Regardless, if they are human, they almost certainly don't care primarily about that even if that is not nonsense. If they are human, then almost certainly they are primarily motivated by money or other selfishness. If they are human, they are irrational, greedy, and foolish.

For example, imagine John Pretendo is a man who smoked cigarettes every day since he turned 18 for decades, and then at age 100 obtained stage 4 lung cancer projecting him to die within a month, drove his motorcycle recklessly 100mph since he was going to die of cancer soon anyway, got in a terrible motorcycle accident, then within 24 hours of being hospitalized for the motorcycle accident he caught the common cold from infected hospital staff who were not taking proper precautions to protect him from their germs, and then died. Now either (1) gun-wielding cops who recently shot an unarmed pacifist protester outside the hospital or (2) the hospital executives who employ Dr. Fakeman ask Dr. Fakeman to tell them "what caused John Pretendo to die". If he is human, I believe firmly that Dr. Fakeman's goal is neither what you say nor the truth.

On philosophy forums, perhaps we concern ourselves more with the truth than any human typically does.

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm Your view, while accurate, technically is more likely to be misused to label everything futile, than to add valuable insight.
I agree because any view and any truth is likely to be misused by humans, since they are so irrational, dishonest, and foolish.

What would follow from my allegedly accurate view if one does not misuse it?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by FoundSpot »

Great question, and you'll be right if you're a Buddhist.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.

Thus, the only cause of death is birth.
The cause of both is SEX.

Life is a sexually transmitted condition that is always fatal
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 5:24 pm Thank you for your reply, LuckyR! :)

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm [...]whereas coroners and epidemiologists care about the actual circumstances that cause death right now...
I propose they can't truly and honestly care about that because that is nonsense.

Regardless, if they are human, they almost certainly don't care primarily about that even if that is not nonsense. If they are human, then almost certainly they are primarily motivated by money or other selfishness. If they are human, they are irrational, greedy, and foolish.

For example, imagine John Pretendo is a man who smoked cigarettes every day since he turned 18 for decades, and then at age 100 obtained stage 4 lung cancer projecting him to die within a month, drove his motorcycle recklessly 100mph since he was going to die of cancer soon anyway, got in a terrible motorcycle accident, then within 24 hours of being hospitalized for the motorcycle accident he caught the common cold from infected hospital staff who were not taking proper precautions to protect him from their germs, and then died. Now either (1) gun-wielding cops who recently shot an unarmed pacifist protester outside the hospital or (2) the hospital executives who employ Dr. Fakeman ask Dr. Fakeman to tell them "what caused John Pretendo to die". If he is human, I believe firmly that Dr. Fakeman's goal is neither what you say nor the truth.

On philosophy forums, perhaps we concern ourselves more with the truth than any human typically does.

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm Your view, while accurate, technically is more likely to be misused to label everything futile, than to add valuable insight.
I agree because any view and any truth is likely to be misused by humans, since they are so irrational, dishonest, and foolish.

What would follow from my allegedly accurate view if one does not misuse it?
Instead of Pretendo and Fakeman, how about a real issue? What is your commentary on the Real, Live researchers and scientists who studied the deaths associated with Covid 19 and came up with treatment improvements and vaccines in record time? According to the OP: who cares? We're all going to die anyway. Those researchers should have stayed home. That's the misuse, BTW. Another might drive to your home and shoot the occupants. Who cares? We're all going to die anyway.

Oh, BTW, I wasn't previously aware that YOU were primarily motivated by money and selfishness. Nor that YOU were irrational, greedy and foolish. But since that's what YOU think, I guess it must be true.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 16th, 2021, 7:04 pm
Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.

Thus, the only cause of death is birth.
The cause of both is SEX.

Life is a sexually transmitted condition that is always fatal
Now I would pay good money for that bumpersticker
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Sy Borg »

The message I'm getting here from Scott is not a decrying of coroners' work, but squaring up with our inevitable deaths. Death has become something exotic, mysterious and shocking to us, and this impacts on how we live our lives. The need for security and retreating from nature tends to rob people of their courage. For instance, I notice these days that more small children cringe in fear when some small, benign-looking dog casually strolls past, whereas when I would young most children would want to pat it.

So people lead smaller lives, whose boundaries are defined by the scary unknowns of nature, including the "tragedy" of death. Of course, how expansively one chooses to live is one's own concern, but that appears to be the situation for better or for worse. Ultimately we are witnesses to major events far beyond our realm of influence so, like any good ant, we just get on with our tiny lives anyway and try to get out of the way when major events happen near us.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.
A matter of perspective, as everything else.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm Your view, while accurate, technically is more likely to be misused to label everything futile, than to add valuable insight.
Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 5:24 pm I agree because any view and any truth is likely to be misused by humans, since they are so irrational, dishonest, and foolish.

What would follow from my allegedly accurate view if one does not misuse it?
LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm [...] the Real, Live researchers and scientists who studied the deaths associated with Covid 19 and came up with treatment improvements and vaccines in record time? According to the OP [if misused]: who cares? We're all going to die anyway. Those researchers should have stayed home. That's the misuse, BTW.
What about when it is not misused? What do think that would that look like?


LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm Oh, BTW, I wasn't previously aware that YOU were primarily motivated by money and selfishness. Nor that YOU were irrational, greedy and foolish.
Fair enough, but I've been pretty open about my humanity. For instance, here is a tweet I posted on January 7th admitting publicly to my humanity.


Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 16th, 2021, 7:04 pm The cause of both is SEX.
There can be birth without sex, and there can be sex without birth. Thus, sex alone is not a sufficient cause for birth, let alone a necessary cause.

Count Lucanor wrote: March 16th, 2021, 9:24 pm
Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.
A matter of perspective, as everything else.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think something like the proposition that 2 + 2 = 4 is a matter of perspective. I don't think the value of pi is a matter of perspective.

Sy Borg wrote: March 16th, 2021, 9:19 pm The message I'm getting here from Scott is not a decrying of coroners' work, but squaring up with our inevitable deaths. Death has become something exotic, mysterious and shocking to us, and this impacts on how we live our lives. The need for security and retreating from nature tends to rob people of their courage. For instance, I notice these days that more small children cringe in fear when some small, benign-looking dog casually strolls past, whereas when I would young most children would want to pat it.

So people lead smaller lives, whose boundaries are defined by the scary unknowns of nature, including the "tragedy" of death. Of course, how expansively one chooses to live is one's own concern, but that appears to be the situation for better or for worse. Ultimately we are witnesses to major events far beyond our realm of influence so, like any good ant, we just get on with our tiny lives anyway and try to get out of the way when major events happen near us.
I think that's a fair reading of my words. Incidentally, my first tattoo was "memnto mori" which is a Latin phrase meaning "remember you will die" that was and is commonly used as a Stoic meditation.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 11:09 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm Your view, while accurate, technically is more likely to be misused to label everything futile, than to add valuable insight.
Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 5:24 pm I agree because any view and any truth is likely to be misused by humans, since they are so irrational, dishonest, and foolish.

What would follow from my allegedly accurate view if one does not misuse it?
LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 4:17 pm [...] the Real, Live researchers and scientists who studied the deaths associated with Covid 19 and came up with treatment improvements and vaccines in record time? According to the OP [if misused]: who cares? We're all going to die anyway. Those researchers should have stayed home. That's the misuse, BTW.
What about when it is not misused? What do think that would that look like?
Well, the good use would be for the individual who is "sweating the small stuff" and having the important episodes pass them by, to stop and smell the roses since our time here is finite and to maximize it (whatever that means to that individual).

The misuse is the opposite, since we're all going to die anyway, everything is futile so do nothing, accomplish nothing, contribute nothing. Who cares?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 16th, 2021, 7:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 16th, 2021, 7:04 pm
Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 1:13 pm The only true cause of death is birth.

Thus, the only cause of death is birth.
The cause of both is SEX.

Life is a sexually transmitted condition that is always fatal
Now I would pay good money for that bumpersticker
Sadly it's not my invention.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 11:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 16th, 2021, 7:04 pm The cause of both is SEX.
There can be birth without sex, and there can be sex without birth. Thus, sex alone is not a sufficient cause for birth, let alone a necessary cause.
Technically birth requires sex. Other forms of life use "division" or "budding"

Definition of birth (Entry 1 of 3)
1a: the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent
b: the act or process of bringing forth young from the womb
2: a state resulting from being born especially at a particular time or place
a Southerner by birth

Besides. It's not as funny.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Sy Borg »

Scott wrote: March 16th, 2021, 11:09 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 16th, 2021, 9:19 pm The message I'm getting here from Scott is not a decrying of coroners' work, but squaring up with our inevitable deaths. Death has become something exotic, mysterious and shocking to us, and this impacts on how we live our lives. The need for security and retreating from nature tends to rob people of their courage. For instance, I notice these days that more small children cringe in fear when some small, benign-looking dog casually strolls past, whereas when I would young most children would want to pat it.

So people lead smaller lives, whose boundaries are defined by the scary unknowns of nature, including the "tragedy" of death. Of course, how expansively one chooses to live is one's own concern, but that appears to be the situation for better or for worse. Ultimately we are witnesses to major events far beyond our realm of influence so, like any good ant, we just get on with our tiny lives anyway and try to get out of the way when major events happen near us.
I think that's a fair reading of my words. Incidentally, my first tattoo was "memnto mori" which is a Latin phrase meaning "remember you will die" that was and is commonly used as a Stoic meditation.
My nephew is a fan of Marcus Aurelius, and that is one of his favourites, along with "amor fati" - to love your fate (whatever it may be), which is a recognition that much is out of your control so you may as well enjoy the ride, if possible.
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Re: The only true cause of death is birth.

Post by Steve3007 »

Processes of finite duration can only stop if, at some point before they stop, they started. I can't argue with that! But I'm not sure if it gives me any new insights and I'm not sure how useful it is to conclude from this that the cause of them stopping is them starting. I generally tend to see things in terms of their utility. If my watch has stopped and I'm looking for the cause of it stopping, I don't think I'd find it particularly useful to conclude that it stopped because it previously started.
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