Is life worth living?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Burning ghost wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 3:57 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 12:54 pm
Burning ghost wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 7:01 am Honestly, all I’m actually saying is thing being ‘better’ is ‘better’.

All is a general term. This is ethics and morality not some clear logical truth. It is better to be better, right?
Depends.

My vehicle is what it is. It would be a mistake to buy a better car.
Would it be good to have a better job - it might pay less?
‘Better’ can now be ‘worse’, and if something is ‘worth it’ it’s now possible to want to do something for the ‘negative worth’.

Non sequitur! Bye bye
No.
What makes a thing better. On objective grounds a better computer is one that has more power, memory, larger screen, faster processing. For subjective reasons that might not be better if I was on a budget and could not afford a better one.

Living is not always better. Death can be better.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Burning ghost »

And that isn’t what I said nor what I was implying. I was not saying there aren’t good reasons to die.

I did say “Is it worth believing/thinking that life isn’t worth living?”

Besides ‘death’ only has ‘value’ for the living as far as I know. It’s much easier to argue that we have no idea what ‘death’ holds so it is nonsensical i]to refer to it as ‘better’.

Nihilism falls into the same category of confusion by holding a value that there are no values.

Aa for ‘it depends’ we can generally assume that ‘killing people’ is a bad thing, but there are some debatable exceptions to this rule of thumb. Some things in their broadest sense are intrinsically taken as a ‘better’. Coming up with specifics is a means of exploring the fuzziness of ethical questions and navigating ourselves towards a ‘better’ future.

Death COULD be better and we could all be living in the belly of a gigantic galactic spaghetti monster. Personally I reckon death knows nothing of any ‘better’/‘worse’ distinction. More than that, I think our temporal nature makes it necessary for us to mark off certain changes in existence.
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Alias »

"Better" has meaning only from a specific point of view, according to a specific set of criteria.
Even an objective definition is limited in its objectivity to a range of vision : faster, more powerful computers may be better from the pov of computer makers and users, but zoom out and see in what ways they may be worse for energy consumption, debt-load, gorillas and landfills.
Terms like "better" and "worth" are too broad of application to be useful. You might replace them with "preferable" - if a subject is specified and the criteria are clear.
There will still be contention, as there is over any terms, whether nebulous or precise.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Alias wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 9:46 am "Better" has meaning only from a specific point of view, according to a specific set of criteria...
👍 ...one of which is what the thing is being compared to, as "better" is comparative. 👍
Pattern-chaser

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Burning ghost wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 5:14 am And that isn’t what I said nor what I was implying. I was not saying there aren’t good reasons to die.

I did say “Is it worth believing/thinking that life isn’t worth living?”
Well, if there are good reasons to die as you imply above, then it is worth beleiving that life is not worth living.
If you cannot accept that belief then you cannot fulfil the inevitable consequence of that fact that there can be good reasons to die.


Besides ‘death’ only has ‘value’ for the living as far as I know. It’s much easier to argue that we have no idea what ‘death’ holds so it is nonsensical i]to refer to it as ‘better’.
That is palpably wrong!!
:roll:
Death has high value in many instances. WIthout death there can be no re-newal. Death can be a great release for a family with a suffering member, and can enable life to move on.
Death can be better than life.


Nihilism falls into the same category of confusion by holding a value that there are no values.
Sorry but pretending that death can have no value is nihilism.
:roll:


Aa for ‘it depends’ we can generally assume that ‘killing people’ is a bad thing, but there are some debatable exceptions to this rule of thumb. Some things in their broadest sense are intrinsically taken as a ‘better’. Coming up with specifics is a means of exploring the fuzziness of ethical questions and navigating ourselves towards a ‘better’ future.
As I say. Better requires context. Better is not necessarily the right choice, in the same way that death is not necessarily the wrong choice.


Death COULD be better and we could all be living in the belly of a gigantic galactic spaghetti monster. Personally I reckon death knows nothing of any ‘better’/‘worse’ distinction. More than that, I think our temporal nature makes it necessary for us to mark off certain changes in existence.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is life worth living

Post by Burning ghost »

Show me a dead person that disagrees. What you refer to as palpably wrong merely reinforced what I said? The LIVING care not the dead.

The OP is about an ‘honourable’ death. Removing the burden of guilt.

‘Better’ is not generally considered to be ‘worse’? What are you talking about. Of course something may APPEAR to be better but turn out to be worse. This is the general problem of living a life. Not knowing what the better choices are doesn’t negate the meaning of ‘better’.

I guess maybe we can just say your opinion is better than mine. I imagine you wouldn’t be quick to tell me the subjectivity of ‘better’ when it suits you.

I don’t agree that it is worth believing that your life is without value. If others do what do they care what I think? If they do they’ve effectively contradicted themselves by showing resolve. If they simply say “My life is too painful to live so I wish to end my life, even though I still value life.” Fine.

Whatever our disagreement here is it’s likely more about semantics. My point was just that worth and value are inextricably linked. The question I put forward was based on this point.

Is there worth in believing/thinking life had no worth? There is no value in viewing life as having no value. There is no colour where there is no colour. There are no Frizzles where there are no Frizzles.

Admittedly in the context of the thread - pain, suffering and burden of guilt - if you’re of the opinion that such items remove the wish to go on living so be it. I am in pain, causing untold suffering to my family and friends, I value life so much that I’m going to end it ... yes. Agreed! I don’t see this as a disregard for the value of life though - that is likely where our interpretations differ drastically.

I’m pretty sure most people think the same about most matters that aren’t overly politicised. Death is a brute fact if ever there was one after all :)
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Re: Is life worth living

Post by gad-fly »

Burning ghost wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 9:18 pm
Is there worth in believing/thinking life had no worth?
As you have pointed out, this is a stupid question. Actually a lame excuse to avoid answering, but haughtily challenging the right to pose the question, or arguing for argument's sake.

Worth is identified with value. If the human race cannot make the earth better, it has no worth (or value) to exist IN THIS RESPECT. However, making the earth better is not the only consideration. The same applies to suffering and sensual pleasure. Hence the topic is raised by me.
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Alias »

Was there something wrong with the earth before humans, that it needed improving?
Come to that, can any species make the earth "better". Better than what? For whom?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is life worth living

Post by Burning ghost »

gad-fly wrote: March 24th, 2021, 11:55 am
Burning ghost wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 9:18 pm
Is there worth in believing/thinking life had no worth?
As you have pointed out, this is a stupid question. Actually a lame excuse to avoid answering, but haughtily challenging the right to pose the question, or arguing for argument's sake.

Worth is identified with value. If the human race cannot make the earth better, it has no worth (or value) to exist IN THIS RESPECT. However, making the earth better is not the only consideration. The same applies to suffering and sensual pleasure. Hence the topic is raised by me.
I literally just answered the questions above? The other guy insisted on specific instances (something you explicitly pointed out on the first page as not what you were looking for).

At some point pain and suffering can overwhelm the will to die. I don’t think ‘wishing to die’ or even ‘euthanasia’ are examples of someone believing that life isn’t worth living. As your question was general - and you made it explicit that it was general rather than looking for anecdotal evidence - I simply reflected the question back on itself?

Why you so upset? Because I also pointed out that humans are generally quite stupid a lot of the time? I like humans :D It wasn’t a slight on the species just a simple fact that helps us dream beyond our dreams and try what seems impossible.

Life without pain or suffering is no decent life at all as far as I’m concerned. Stagnation and purposefully clinging to ignorance merely narrows human experience and makes people numb.

The lyrics to ‘Wish you were here’ sum it for me:

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell?
Blue skies from pain?
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
Did you exchange
A walk-on part in the war
For a leading role in a cage?

I don’t see how anyone has any right to claim that life - in general - is or isn’t worth living. I think it makes zero sense to think/believe that life isn’t worth living IN GENERAL.

If you have some follow up questions and/or wish to express your thoughts/answers great. Maybe some other line of questioning would be useful.
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Re: Is life worth living

Post by gad-fly »

Burning ghost wrote: March 25th, 2021, 12:56 am
gad-fly wrote: March 24th, 2021, 11:55 am
Burning ghost wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 9:18 pm
Is there worth in believing/thinking life had no worth?
As you have pointed out, this is a stupid question. Actually a lame excuse to avoid answering, but haughtily challenging the right to pose the question, or arguing for argument's sake.

Worth is identified with value. If the human race cannot make the earth better, it has no worth (or value) to exist IN THIS RESPECT. However, making the earth better is not the only consideration. The same applies to suffering and sensual pleasure. Hence the topic is raised by me.
I literally just answered the questions above?
I thought you have implied the answer.

the topic: Is life worth living? Expected response: Yes since . . .; No since . . .; Yes and No since . . . Some may question: Why did you ask? Fine. No doubt I have some good reason, even though I may say: this is beside the point.

To say: Is it worth asking for worth is playing with words. My answer is already written on the wall.

Suppose I say: Money has value. If someone say: what is the value to ask about value. Then I would say this is a stupid question, serving no purpose than to confuse.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Burning ghost »

Yes, because it makes no sense to believe otherwise.

This answer was strongly implied in my very first post here. It wasn’t meant to confuse, but I did intend it to provoke a little thought (because philosophy forums are a good place for that).

Note: I wouldn’t mind seeing the wall your answer is written on. It’s always nice to see how the person asking the question would attempt to answer it.
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by gad-fly »

Burning ghost wrote: March 25th, 2021, 8:48 pm Yes, because it makes no sense to believe otherwise.

This answer was strongly implied in my very first post here. It wasn’t meant to confuse, but I did intend it to provoke a little thought (because philosophy forums are a good place for that).

Note: I wouldn’t mind seeing the wall your answer is written on. It’s always nice to see how the person asking the question would attempt to answer it.
The answer on the wall is: YES.

Given choice, I would not have the question framed as: is it worth asking whether it is worth to ask about life? Why? Ask when you want comment, opinion, idea, and so on, not based on you qualified or worthy to pose the question.
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Re: Is life worth living?

Post by Sy Borg »

Alias wrote: March 24th, 2021, 2:09 pm Was there something wrong with the earth before humans, that it needed improving?
Come to that, can any species make the earth "better". Better than what? For whom?
Yes, and humans have not solved it. That is, one can only live by killing or exploiting others.

I personally think that biology is only a phase in the universe because it is, ultimately, neither sustainable nor tolerable. The best one can hope for are extended periods of calm and balance between the inevitable agonies of birth and death. Other animals don't question it but humanity, being able to see this big(ger) picture view, want better*.

So there is work being done with the aim of creating digital realities that can be sustained by non-living resources. Whether that happens depends on what consciousness is. If materialism and IIT are correct, then it should be possible with sufficient knowhow to re-create consciousness digitally in the future. If, however, consciousness turns out to be fundamental rather than emergent, then that's a whole other kettle of fish :)

Either way, no matter how useless we may feel in our lives, we are small parts of an extraordinary larger story of existence and life with at least a trillion habitable years ahead to play out. What natural and artificial selection could potentially produce in that time (given how much has happened in just the last billion years) is far beyond our comprehension, a prospect that I find both exciting and pleasing.


* Sadly, it seems that other species will be decimated before digitisation is achieved.
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