Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

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Nick_A
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Nick_A »

Plato describes four levels of knowledge:
noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)
dianoia (discursive thought)
pistis (belief or confidence)
eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)
When the inner man dies he becomes incapable of noesis or the mental seeing of principles. The outer man is confined to the eternal battles over opinions inspired by dianoia or discursive thought so cannot experience what he is. The purpose of philosophy is to arouse and nourish the inner man.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Tegularius
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2021, 9:22 amWhat is it about spirituality that you see as a possible hindrance?
In many cases its unrealistic side effects such as soul which has no meaning at all; aside which spirituality is very much a subjective experience a function of brain chemistry which doesn't negate its overall value. But remember there are both good and evil spirits as well working within the human psyche.
Tegularius wrote: March 27th, 2021, 7:20 pm On a daily basis spirituality is not a requirement and may actually be a hindrance.
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2021, 9:22 amDo you offer evidence to support this opinion? On what basis do you judge? What is it about spirituality that you see as a possible hindrance?
A constant influx of spiritual experiences causes paralysis. What is an actual spiritual experience? For me, it's the sensation of compressed time, of time standing still making itself timeless in that frozen still moment. The mundane is subject to time; the spiritual impervious to it. Such experiences wouldn't be practical day-to-day.
Tegularius wrote: March 27th, 2021, 7:20 pm As for putting analytic philosophers off or any philosophers why should you care? All philosophy is a matter of interpretation and fair game!
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2021, 9:22 am I was just trying to be polite and not to derail discussion by encouraging insult-swapping. Debate can be seen as a search for knowledge, learning and understanding. I chose to see it that way, not as a way of 'winning' arguments.
There should be more like you!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2021, 9:22 amWhat is it about spirituality that you see as a possible hindrance?
Tegularius wrote: March 28th, 2021, 6:22 pm In many cases its unrealistic side effects such as soul which has no meaning at all; ... A constant influx of spiritual experiences causes paralysis.
These are strange and unfounded statements. Many find a meaning in "soul", and, since you offer no evidence or argument to support your assertions, why should your unsupported opinion carry any more weight than theirs?

Tegularius wrote: March 28th, 2021, 6:22 pm What is an actual spiritual experience? For me, it's the sensation of compressed time, of time standing still making itself timeless in that frozen still moment.
This is not a common perception of spirituality. Spirituality, as you seem to point out (below), is indifferent to time, in the sense that you describe here. And yet you assert that it is "the sensation of compressed time" for you...?

Tegularius wrote: March 28th, 2021, 6:22 pm The mundane is subject to time; the spiritual impervious to it. Such experiences wouldn't be practical day-to-day.
Real people live their real lives, in the real world, accompanied by spirituality in all kinds of ways. They find their lives eminently practical, one assumes? Your objections don't seem to stand up...?
Pattern-chaser

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Tegularius
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amThese are strange and unfounded statements. Many find a meaning in "soul", and, since you offer no evidence or argument to support your assertions, why should your unsupported opinion carry any more weight than theirs?
People can find meaning in almost anything which provides comfort. Soul is one such instance. It's not a subject on which evidence can be offered. I also don't expect my opinion to carry more weight than anyone else; it's simply a debate based on individual views which vary a lot.
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amSpirituality, as you seem to point out (below), is indifferent to time, in the sense that you describe here. And yet you assert that it is "the sensation of compressed time" for you...?
It would have been more accurate to say that spirituality resists the impression of time. Day to day experiences are usually paced at its normal rate but become condensed and magnified when, for lack of a better word, the spiritual, all due to brain chemistry, announces itself for whatever reason. It can also happen under severe trauma. The more intense an event the more the sensation of time gets diminished. There is nothing new in this.
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amReal people live their real lives, in the real world, accompanied by spirituality in all kinds of ways. They find their lives eminently practical, one assumes?
This sounds more sentimental than actual. Now it's my turn to ask where is your evidence for that?
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amYour objections don't seem to stand up...?
Don't stand up to what...? You view or interpret things differently. I have no reason to object to any of it with or without requested evidence. What other's think or feel is of no concern to me and couldn't care less! Everyone argues entrenched in their own perceptions. Philosophy forums are simply platforms to debate those differences. Nothing more! It's not as if anything could ever be accomplished on them besides entertainment.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Fellowmater
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Fellowmater »

Etymologically speaking, philosophy is the activity of loving wisdom. The goal of philosophy is to pursue wisdom. Therefore, before the arrival of philosophy, humans did pursue wisdom, i.e. humans didn’t care about knowledge. Now we can ask again what life is like then?

Without knowledge, we live in a cave, said Plato, the great philosopher. In the cave, we can only see the shadow of real things, but not themselves. It is doing philosophy that we have to chance to see the real things outside the cave.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amReal people live their real lives, in the real world, accompanied by spirituality in all kinds of ways. They find their lives eminently practical, one assumes?
Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm This sounds more sentimental than actual. Now it's my turn to ask where is your evidence for that?

There's plenty around. Here's one example.
BBC wrote:Only a quarter of those questioned thought spiritual forces had no influence on Earth.

And almost two-thirds of those who identified themselves as Christians thought such spiritual forces could influence people's thoughts or the natural world.

More than a third of the non-religious shared that belief. Link to original article.
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm Day to day experiences are usually paced at its normal rate but become condensed and magnified when, for lack of a better word, the factual, all due to brain chemistry, announces itself for whatever reason.
Has the word I altered changed the meaning or correctness of what you said? I don't think so....
Pattern-chaser

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Tegularius
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amReal people live their real lives, in the real world, accompanied by spirituality in all kinds of ways. They find their lives eminently practical, one assumes?
Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm This sounds more sentimental than actual. Now it's my turn to ask where is your evidence for that?

There's plenty around. Here's one example.
BBC wrote:Only a quarter of those questioned thought spiritual forces had no influence on Earth.

And almost two-thirds of those who identified themselves as Christians thought such spiritual forces could influence people's thoughts or the natural world.

More than a third of the non-religious shared that belief. Link to original article.
What the article refers to is the usual mundane version of spirituality namely the religious kind. Also considering the source...Christian Think Tank Theos, I think I'll pass on the religious propaganda. You and I are referring to different kinds of spirituality which for me does not include the make-believes of religion. Not least, what is believed in is not at all the same as what is experienced which is usually done in private and does not necessitate the rituals of worn-out beliefs to make one comfortable.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Tegularius
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 30th, 2021, 12:44 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm Day to day experiences are usually paced at its normal rate but become condensed and magnified when, for lack of a better word, the factual, all due to brain chemistry, announces itself for whatever reason.
Has the word I altered changed the meaning or correctness of what you said? I don't think so....
I don't understand the message you're trying to convey by insertion of the word factual. Sorry!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Tegularius
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Tegularius »

What I meant to add was that however spirituality is defined ALL such experiences are a consequence of brain chemistry and derives from what is purely materialistic which does not in any way devalue its highly mysterious and potent effects.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tegularius wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:45 am What I meant to add was that however spirituality is defined ALL such experiences are a consequence of brain chemistry and derives from what is purely materialistic which does not in any way devalue its highly mysterious and potent effects.
Tegularius wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:25 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 30th, 2021, 12:44 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm Day to day experiences are usually paced at its normal rate but become condensed and magnified when, for lack of a better word, the factual, all due to brain chemistry, announces itself for whatever reason.
Has the word I altered changed the meaning or correctness of what you said? I don't think so....
I don't understand the message you're trying to convey by insertion of the word factual. Sorry!
I meant that your comments, apparently specific to spirituality, apply just as well to facts, and to loads of other subjects too.
Pattern-chaser

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Re: Can Humanity Survive Without Philosophy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amReal people live their real lives, in the real world, accompanied by spirituality in all kinds of ways. They find their lives eminently practical, one assumes?
Tegularius wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:42 pm This sounds more sentimental than actual. Now it's my turn to ask where is your evidence for that?
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 29th, 2021, 7:07 amThere's plenty around. Here's one example.
BBC wrote:Only a quarter of those questioned thought spiritual forces had no influence on Earth.

And almost two-thirds of those who identified themselves as Christians thought such spiritual forces could influence people's thoughts or the natural world.

More than a third of the non-religious shared that belief. Link to original article.
Tegularius wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:21 am What the article refers to is the usual mundane version of spirituality namely the religious kind. Also considering the source...Christian Think Tank Theos, I think I'll pass on the religious propaganda. You and I are referring to different kinds of spirituality which for me does not include the make-believes of religion. Not least, what is believed in is not at all the same as what is experienced which is usually done in private and does not necessitate the rituals of worn-out beliefs to make one comfortable.

Without getting too pedantic, isn't religion a special case - perhaps a more concentrated case? - of spirituality? To separate the two seems ... strange.
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