From the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party: Is pain as good as pleasure? Is success as good as failure?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

From the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party: Is pain as good as pleasure? Is success as good as failure?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

In my other topic, Equality, Unconditional Love, and Monism of Value and Being, I asked respondents to speculate hypothetically on what it would mean or be like if there was no such thing as bad. I asked, what if all things were equally good?

In this topic, I'd like to ask whether that is actually the case. In the other topic, the questions took the form of 'what if' questions. In this topic, they will take the form of 'is' questions.

Prior to answering the below questions, we cannot assume that conscious value is non-monistic because that would be a begging the question fallacy. Nonetheless, even if conscious value/experience does add a dualistic non-monistic value system of judgement above and beyond that of which a philosophical zombie or NPC could be capable, then nonetheless what's good versus bad to the consciousness of a non-zombie is not equivalent to what is desirable or preferred according to the programming of the would-be zombie in terms of agent-relative desirability. The latter is merely the unconscious mathematical output of a programmed function, like an alarm clock unconsciously 'choosing' whether to go off or not based on the time and thus 'preferring' to make a sound or not based on the time and thus in a way seeming to 'desire' that you wake up or continue sleeping (at a given time under certain conditions).

For those reasons, I ask you to answer each question from the hypothetical perspective of an eternal omniscient conscious being viewing unchanging spacetime as a 4D whole. That is not to suggest that such a being actually exists, but it is meant to help us avoid falsely conflating objective and/or consciousness-dependent goodness and badness with mere agent-relative desirability, the latter of which even a philosophical zombie or unconscious NPC has. Even a non-NPC is at least partly NPC-like, in that some of--if not most of--its behavior is based on programing not conscious inputs (i.e. some kind of transcendental will or conscious potency). In fact, it's not mostly NPC-like but totally NPC-equivleent in the case of a consciousness that is totally impotent, meaning the consciousness is more like a person watching a movie than a person playing a video game or reading a choose-your-own-adventure novel. In such a case, even the protagonist (i.e. the seeming avatar of the consciousness) is effectively an NPC, just an NPC that happens to be specially observed by the conscious non-player.

Even referring to the potentially unconscious desires or potentially unconscious preferences of agent-relative desirability as 'subjective' would be equivocal and potentially misleading, since the word 'subjectivity' can imply consciousness. Agent-relative desirability is utterly subjective and relative, but not even in a conscious way.

So, answering from the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party, I ask you to answer the following questions:


1. Is pain as good as pleasure?

2. Is discomfort as good as comfort?

3. Is failure as good as success?

4. Is death as good as birth?

5. Is the rain as good as the sun?

6. Are the running antelope and the chasing lion equally good?

7. Is hell just heaven in disguise?

8. Is everything good, and there is no such thing as bad?

9. Is reality as a whole worthy of unconditional love?

10. Is there thus no problem of evil (i.e. no evil)?

11. Is reality inherently right? In other words, is it impossible for reality to be wrong?

12. Is timeless reality as a whole beautiful and inexorably perfect?

13. Is there no true way to objectively dualistically judge aspects of reality as objectively right reality (i.e. true, actual, and right) versus objectively wrong reality (i.e. simultaneously actual and false), as lovable reality versus hateworthy reality, as acceptable reality versus unacceptable reality, as objectively positive reality versus objectively negative reality? In other words, does such judgement contradict the simple undeniable fact that, whatever it is, it is what it is?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: From the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party: Is pain as good as pleasure? Is success as good as failu

Post by Nick_A »

Hi Scott
13. Is there no true way to objectively dualistically judge aspects of reality as objectively right reality (i.e. true, actual, and right) versus objectively wrong reality (i.e. simultaneously actual and false), as lovable reality versus hateworthy reality, as acceptable reality versus unacceptable reality, as objectively positive reality versus objectively negative reality? In other words, does such judgement contradict the simple undeniable fact that, whatever it is, it is what it is?
Yin and yang can be defined as two halves that together complete wholeness. Yin and yang is a necessary relationship for creation. Without it, creation would be impossible. Objectively there is nothing bad about yin or yang yet a person can experience how they experience the results of yin and yang as either good or bad. Yet if good and bad and like you wrote whatever it is, it is what it is?

If good and bad is a subjective human concept does this mean that the concept of objective value is also just a subjective human concept? Since my interest in philosophy centers round the purpose of our universe and the purpose of life within it including human life, the question of objective value is important for me.

The questions you asked may not be answered by good and bad but can be defined by objective value.

Objective value can be described as the Great Chain of Being.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Chain-of-Being
Great Chain of Being, also called Chain of Being, conception of the nature of the universe that had a pervasive influence on Western thought, particularly through the ancient Greek Neoplatonists and derivative philosophies during the European Renaissance and the 17th and early 18th centuries. The term denotes three general features of the universe: plenitude, continuity, and gradation. The principle of plenitude states that the universe is “full,” exhibiting the maximal diversity of kinds of existences; everything possible (i.e., not self-contradictory) is actual. The principle of continuity asserts that the universe is composed of an infinite series of forms, each of which shares with its neighbour at least one attribute. According to the principle of linear gradation, this series ranges in hierarchical order from the barest type of existence to the ens perfectissimum, or God…………………….
Objective value is defined by the level of reality a given quality of being is located on. An animal is a higher quality of being than a vegetable. All the steps on the ladder are a necessity but value is determined by how close they are to the Source. Together they create the structure of creation and the essential complimentary flows of of forces called involution and evolution that sustain and reveal the purpose of our universe.

Animal life is restricted to mechanical evolution resulting in dust to dust. Man is unique on earth because Man is capable of conscious evolution; from animal Man into conscious Man and a higher quality of being.

The great traditions initiating with a conscious source all seek to awaken Man to its conscious potential in their own way. Animal man prefers to argue over subjective conceptions of good and bad. The majority are unaware of. so unable to feel their potential for objective value. They remain closed to their ability to experience objective “conscience.”
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
hlhunt33
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: April 10th, 2021, 11:31 pm

Re: From the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party: Is pain as good as pleasure? Is success as good as failu

Post by hlhunt33 »

Scott. My philosophy stems directly from the apparent perfection in both form and function of every particle (quantum) of energy of which every known gravid existence is composed. It supposes that all such perfection represents the sum total of a perfect rationality which imagined them with its perfect intellect and loved (accepted) them with its perfect will. Once accomplished, that omniscient being became instantaneously impotent to effect any change. Therefore, as those particles have continued to perform perfectly, they have cumulatively effected every event since their release (creation), and always in perfect fashion. As a consequence of their perfection and unchangeability, they do now and always have existed in eternity, a state of being where change (time) does not exist. Since their generator, whom I call God, exists in eternity, I accept that collectively they are God. I have defined the essence of God thus: God is a Perfect Rational Being. Therefore, so-called Dualism is impossible. Likewise, good and bad, evil and virtue have equal value---they simply represent the imagination of living beings having their senses either pleased or displeased.
I believe this brief response answers all the questions you posed. If you think not, I'll try again.
I might add for clarity that no one can prove or disprove the existence of God (Supreme Being). However, I don't believe anyone can dispute the existence of a 'prefect rationality' in the universe.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: From the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party: Is pain as good as pleasure? Is success as good as failu

Post by gad-fly »

Scott wrote: April 8th, 2021, 3:32 pm So, answering from the perspective of an impotent omniscient third-party, I ask you to answer the following questions:
With due respect, I have to aver that at least some can be described as silly questions which may attract argument for argument's sake.

Q1 to Q4.
A. Of course, generally speaking, unless you can bring up some one-in-a-thousand exceptional case to boost the contrary. Say: I feel so painful now, better dead than alive.

Q5. Is the rain as good as the sun?
A. Rain and rain are equally good or bad. Too much of each is bad.

Q6. Are the running antelope and the chasing lion equally good?
A. Depending on who you are. Suppose you ask whether you or me is good or bad? A third party can pick, and so can you and me.

Q7. Is hell just heaven in disguise?
A. No. Apple cannot disguise as orange.

Q8. Is everything good, and there is no such thing as bad?
A. No. The dictionary is there for a reason. Ignore it, and you will be impotent. Good and bad is conscience.

Q9. Is reality as a whole worthy of unconditional love?
A. No. Love is from the heart. Worth is not earned by being real.

10. Is there thus no problem of evil (i.e. no evil)?
A. Of course not. why should we call that evil then?

Q11. Is reality inherently right? In other words, is it impossible for reality to be wrong?
A. Reality is existent. Right and wrong is moral value.

Q12. Is timeless reality as a whole beautiful and inexorably perfect?
A. Reality is existent. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021